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 Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:01 am 
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Man that sucks John. Hang in there it will get better in the future. You will forget about all of this after the first pass. ;-) =;

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 Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:59 am 
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Chassis guys are second only to used car salesmen when it comes to lies and such. Body shop guys are up there too!

I've built two cars from scratch and both of'm had some problems with either square or twist. The Camaro I have now is out of square as the bars on the right rear have to be longer than the ones on the left rear to get the thrust line parallel to the chassis center line. Took some doing but I finally got it where it handles like a dream running mid 5s in the eight mile. The yellow 68 Camaro I built back in the 1980s was an inch and a half out of square and that one also ran straight and hooked hard.

But yeah, we always want things to be "perfect" but that doesn't always happen, especially when you're dealing with a back half car.

But ennywho, you really won't know where everything is until it's all together and you line it out to square up the rear with the chassis center line then sit it on the scales to get the corner weights right. It ain't over until it's over!

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 Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:49 pm 
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That's why everything's adjustable! ....O:)...... =;

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 Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:44 pm 
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Thanks guys for your moral support, it just bugs the hell out of me right now, and I talked with my chassis guy today, and since the 4 link bars were pretty tight and bound up when we went to set the wheelbase and then the pinion angle that that, will ease up the pressure on the right front , so with that being said, the chassis has not been on the ground again yet. I asked him that as soon as he finish's the antiroll sway bar kit to put the chassis back on the ground and see how it sits then. We shall see, and he assured me that the chassis is not bent, but from a guy that doesn't do chassis work for a living in either drag or roundy round cars(me), I am very spectical about a bent front subframe at this point. I would assumne that once a 4 link suspension is installed, that the sensitivity becomes more apparent and the diagonal weights will really show up, but what do I know!!! :- I also mentioned that once all the 4 link bars are loose and no preload on them, and the chassis is on the ground again, to see what it looks like, of course, I have NO fuel cel or both batteries in the back also, and, I am not sitting in the chassis, so some weight will have to be added to simulate all that weight, then scale it and see what we have. I will not settel for a rear set of springs that are (2) different heigths to keep the front end level, that's a bandaid that just doesn't work for me, it's either straight, or re-work it to make it straight, no exceptions. So, it looks like the Elky man may not even make it out this year, but, I am hopefull that it woll work out and be level once again. I guess it is a trial & error at this point, but when he sets it on the ground again and gets back to me I will give more updates on the chassis. Let's pray the chassis or the new backhalf is straight and not bent in any way shape or form.

He did mention that when he cut the roll cage out of the back, and the frame and floor annd all that he heard a release of pressure or a POP! and I said man, you better had made sure this frame was straight and squared and level, otherwise the frame is bent and we need to double check everything we can to find this problem.

Thanks again you guys for the support and info, I won't even get into the seat until it's right, end of statement [-X .

John

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Last edited by Elkyman on Wed May 26, 2010 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:50 pm 
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When you put it on the ground make sure one of the anti-roll bar links is disconnected. Also pull the front bolt out of the top right four link bar. this will allow the chassis to sit in a neutral position.

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 Post Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 9:15 pm 
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gearhead1011 wrote:
When you put it on the ground make sure one of the anti-roll bar links is disconnected. Also pull the front bolt out of the top right four link bar. this will allow the chassis to sit in a neutral position.


Thanks Chuck, I will pass that info on to the chassis guy. Help me to understand if you could to have the top right bar disconnected? If all bars are all free and move freely as well, what will the reason be to remove the top bar? Just trying to learn and get more of a inside feel for what these chassis's do and how they react to any change. :-k I can figure out the antiroll bar being disconnected and I hope he thought of this part also. I will chat with him later. Thanks again. ;-)

John

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 Post Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 11:07 pm 
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When the suspension is setup, you must be in the drivers seat (or YOUR weight in sand bags, etc) in order to get everything neutral. This means that the car must be in race trim and "wet", ie, fuel, etc. The best way to do that is to have a three link setup in the rear with the top right loose and out of the equation. Since there's only three attachment points, to get corner weights where they need to be there won't be any preload there to have to worry about while you're doing that. Once you got corner weights where they need to be with "springs" and such, then you can connect that top right bar and anti-roll bar and KNOW that the rear suspension is neutral.

Now, having said all that, what it does at the track will prove what you did in the shop.

FYI, I scaled my car winter before last after I had set it up by the "seat of my pants" and it was within 12lbs side to side on the rear corners!

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 Post Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Thanks Ken, that's good info that will go a long way.

What I plan on doing this weekend coming up is this, I am going to eliminate the rear axle, 4 link bars, anti-roll bar links, wishbone and shocks and springs and use (2) jack stands of equal heigth at the rear most frame rails and just put the front end on the ground and IF, it still sits low on the passenger side, then I would think that I will have a tweeked frame somewhere between the front of the bed, to the front of the two front frame rails, this imo would show whether the complete frame and new backhalf is all straight or not, does this make sense to you? I just figured that if I start at the frame and start eliminating components first it will tell everything about the frame work, I could be wrong too :- .

I do also agree from what you mentioned that it needs to be race ready before the scales get anywhere near the car, just makes sense to me, but my chassis guy said not to loose any sleep over this situation. So, I need to do a process of elimination for my own well being and start with the frame first and let the front end be on the ground and see how level the front end is, and THIS should tell us both what is going on at that point. If all is good, we will re-hook up the 4 link bars(all loose), the wishbone next and then the shocks & springs and try to get it to sit somewhat level, (also tossing in both batteries in the bed, weight to equal the fuel weight, fuel pump and so on, then we will add weight to the seat and see how things start to move then. You see, my car is 72 miles away and that's one way, and I am spending a lot of fuel money now to keep making trips back & forth only to get a few hours of work done, so I spend 8-12 hours in one day when I do go to the car, so at this point, all I can do is simulate the weights as it would take another 3-7 trips to get the whole car wired, fuel system ran to the back, batteries mounted and the fuel cell also. I bring a scale with me so we can add the correct amount of weights to where it is needed vs the components installed so I will be real close to actual and I can live with that as long as the frame is not bent and the chassis starts to sit more level as I get closer to installing the simulated weights of the parts, it is just costing me too much for all these trips.

Although my truck is getting almost 17 mpg on the 7.3 ltr diesel now, and fuel had dropped in price here too, that helps.

I will keep all posted on this weekends findings and pray for good news along the way.

I held a MANS garage sale this past weekend and made over $330. towards the car, so now I just need the parachute, and new coat & pants and that should be about it for any big dollar items, then just the small stuff and tin work.

Wish me luck coming up this weekend as I need some ;-)
Until then.

John

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 Post Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 9:01 pm 
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John the point that I started to make and Ken followed up on is you want to make sure the suspension isn't in a bind and causing the car to sit crooked. You don't have to have all the weight in it just to check it but you do want all the weight in it for final set up. You can take a 4-link car that is set up perfect and put a couple of turns in just one of the upper bars and get that car all jacked up on one side and if the rear is uneven the front will be too. If your car is 3-4 inches off when sitting on a level floor the chassis would have to be badly bent and I would think you could've seen that before you started.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:12 pm 
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I got what your saying Chuck, and I didn't want to show too much of my ignorance in suspensions, but I guess it shows either way :-
I am a see, kind of guy, and until I see that all this does effect things, then I will get a better idea and understanding of how these suspensions really work. I do agree with what your saying and will try this also this weekend as it will be much easier than disconnecting the complete rear axle and all related to it. This is MY A$$ in this chassis and until I am comfortable with the way things sit and level out, I ain't going racing. I can't afford to wreck MY chassis, or hit the guy in the other lane either, I respect many racers and even the ones in the lanes waiting to race and I will not stand for a hack job of a back halved chassis if all is not straight and up to par.

I will do as both you and Ken mentioned and think about how all this works together. Sorry to be so stubborn about this and my thoughts and what I want to do, gues an ond engine guy should stick to engines instead of chassis's ](*,)
I will see how things go this weekend and thanks a bunch for your info about chassis's I need all the help I can get. ;-)

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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Elkyman wrote:
I got what your saying Chuck, and I didn't want to show too much of my ignorance in suspensions


Hey I thought you and Dave Morgan were friends? Didn't you go to one of his schools? :-k

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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Ken, Dave is kind of hard to get ahold of from time to time, plus he lives in West Va. and that is a drive for me to even think about meeting with him. Yes, I went to one of his class's and he covered just about everything in his book and for 12 hours of class room time, I had already read about everything he said, plus, I absorbed the rest.

Now, since I am against the clock working on my Elky, I just need to plan out my work and make the best useage of time. Since I have never really worked on a real full tube chassis car, or someone's backhalfed car, I am going about this the best I know how without the experience except with my stock suspension coil spring'd car, and things change when you start playing with a backhalf chassis type suspension vs stock. I understand the basic pricipal of the suspension and some of the therory from Billy S.'s web site, but he gets so indepth, and I always sucked in algerbra too :- but, I am always trying to mind think things before I do something and to verify those thoughts with articles, web info, and talking to people who do this stuff for a living.

As for my car, well, until I see that the 4 link bars were what bound up the suspension and caused the right front on my chassis to nose dive way more than the driver side, I need to see things and how & why they do what they do, so if I put the chassis up in the back on solid stands, and the front end still sits way unlevel, that tells me the chassis is bent, and that is all I can think of that makes sense because I just haven't got the experience yet of this whole suspension deal, maybe some day I will finally grasp it, but ever since the backhalf got put on my elky, it hasn't sit straight in the front end since. This is what has me thinking about a bent chassis. Updates at 11 =;

John

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:09 am 
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Hoooopaaaaa =; Problem solved on the possible tweaked chassis. The driver top 4 link bar was so tight when we were setting the wheelbase that THAT is what caused the right front to nose dive down so much. Glad that is all good now. Here is some pics and just some bed tin is left to do and then add some weight, dbl check the wheelbase, change the pinion angle and set the 4 link bars up for a starting point for an I/C spot, and find the C/G of the car and I am taking it home, hopefully this Sat.
Thanks for all your support and info guys, seeing truely is believing. \:D/ \:D/

John

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:30 am 
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Some more pics.

Alright, for some reason, this site won't let me post more pics that I have already downsized to less than 800 pixels wide, so here is the link, hope these work!!!

John

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http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk21 ... 0005-1.jpg

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http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk21 ... 0_0001.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk21 ... 0_0003.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk21 ... 0_0002.jpg

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:41 am 
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John it looks fast just setting there. \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ Now get that thing home so it will be ready for Milan ;-)

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