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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:42 pm 
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Bubstr wrote:
Is there any possible way you gained left side weight

Hmmm, are you asking me if a got a lot fatter?  
seriously, my weight hasn't changed more than 5 pounds over the last 5 years.  
I scaled the car when I finished it. I have the weights saved somewhere but I think it started out with the right 5 lbs. heavier than the left rear.  A couple of weeks ago when I was trying to fix this problem, I performed a 4 wheel alignment and scaled it. The front toe was off slightly but the rest of it was about the same as when I 1st set it up.  The rear was still  about 3 lbs heavier on the right.  I would think if something changed then the alignment would have changed, the preload would have changed or the weights would have changed.  I intend to weigh it again to see where it's at now that it's going straight.
As far as the suspension goes it all looks good,  and I have looked close at the brackets & welds. I guess we will see what happens.

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:30 pm 
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It occurred to me a few days after I worked on my car where the problem may have been.  While going over in my head (I do that) what I did when I put my shocks back on I had a thought. Before I removed the borrowed shocks I scaled the rear of the car so I could put it right back to where it was.  In doing this I unbolted one of my anti roll bar links so it wouldn't interfere with my weights.  Then I remembered how some of the Mustang guys use an anti roll bar to preload the rear suspension and I came to this conclusion. I may not have properly neutraled the anti roll bar when I did the initial set up on the suspension and I know I didn't adjust it after I got to the track. So I think I may have had some preload in the rear through the anti roll bar and I may have adjusted against it with the 4 link.  Like I said in the 1st post in this thread I changed the arms on the anti roll bar after the problem started. The original arms slipped on the end of the shaft and were drilled and bolted thorough. The reason I changed these arms is because the bolt holes had loosened up some and I could hold one side still and shift the other about 1/4".  I think that must have been where the set up changed. I lost preload I wasn't considering when the arms loosened up. When I went to the weld on arms I neutraled it the way it should have been.  Now the rear is set where it should be and there is no more problem. George when you install that anti roll bar on yours make sure it is set to neutral with the suspension set where it should be and with driver weight in the car.  :-$

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:33 pm 
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Makes sense Chuck, it is easy to get lost on the set up. I can tell you first hand.
Greg

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:22 pm 
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gearhead1011 wrote:
George when you install that anti roll bar on yours make sure it is set to neutral with the suspension set where it should be and with driver weight in the car.  :-$


Yessir that is a prerequisite.  To take that one step further, if you make a change to the 4 link disconnect one side of the anti-roll, make your 4 link adjustment, and then reconnect the anti-roll after lengthening/shortening the drop link back to neutral.  I would prefer to always preload the 4 link if needed versus doing it with the anti-roll bar adjustments.

George


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:46 pm 
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gdmii wrote:
gearhead1011 wrote:
George when you install that anti roll bar on yours make sure it is set to neutral with the suspension set where it should be and with driver weight in the car.  :-$


Yessir that is a prerequisite.  To take that one step further, if you make a change to the 4 link disconnect one side of the anti-roll, make your 4 link adjustment, and then reconnect the anti-roll after lengthening/shortening the drop link back to neutral.  I would prefer to always preload the 4 link if needed versus doing it with the anti-roll bar adjustments.

George


I never intended to preload with the anti roll. I think I set the car up with the anti roll disconnected but may not have had the driver weight in it when I hooked the drop link up  [-( . When I fine tuned at the track I never changed the anti roll and I think I over compensated with the 4 link.  When the anti roll loosened up is when the trouble started.  This is the 1st time I have had a car with this bar and I guess I overlooked the fine tuning on it. It was working at the time and I didn't see the need to mess with it.

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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:22 pm 
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Yeah I think I will be doing some learning as I go when mine goes in.  Hopefully I can get it close the first time and not scare myself silly that first launch.

George


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Well here's the latest on my dilemma. The car started making the left again, although not as bad. I just adjusted the preload at the track and it straightened back out. It did ok for a few more passes then started making the left again. I swapped the tires around after it started again and no change. I adjusted the preload another flat and it straightened out. I took it to the shop and had another real good look at it on the lift, nothing.  I just scaled the back of the car and there is now 144 lbs. more on the left rear than the right rear. This tells me the chassis is holding the changes made and I now believe the sidewalls of the tires are worn out and must be upsetting the chassis on launch. It will have new rubber on it for this weekend and I will start with the preload neutral. if I'm right in my thinking if i didn't take the weight off the L.R. this thing would make a hard right with the new tires.  I guess we will see. Oh yeah, the tech guy I talked with at M/T today told me with that many runs on the tires, especially it being a stick car, the sidewalls had to be worn out.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:47 pm 
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Wow!  144 lbs. is a helluva difference.  But it would make sense at this point that the tires might be the culprit as they are the only other variable.

George


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:41 am 
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Here's my update and it's gonna be a long one.
I put new tires on it and went back to neutral on the preload and took it out the following friday (the 7th).  !st pass the clutch slipped a little more than normal and it didn't pick the front end up much, but it still went to the left. I adjusted the preload, set the anti roll and tried again.  Still went left, so I adjusted the preload and anti roll again.  Guess what? Yeah still going left. By now I had 4 flats of preload in it and knew I was missing something. I decided to try disconnecting the anti roll by removing a drop link and try it again.  I'm out of time runs by now so it's 1st round of eliminations but I figure I'm still testing.  The car went left again but didn't seem as bad, I had a late light and broke out but decided to buy back in just to see what it would do. While I was pulling out of the staging lanes my clutch started acting up, I lost the pedal, and it wasn't releasing right,  I put it in neutral and worked the pedal a couple of times and got it back. As I pulled into the water I figured either the disc was flaking or the plate broke a spring  and a piece got hung between the disc and plate. Either way I was going to make the pass. It was awful, the car jumped to the left and was all over the track. I'm thinking to myself,  now I'm not only dealing with a chassis issue, but now I have to replace the clutch. Well at least the clutch won't be a problem to fix.
Over the next week I pulled the rear out of the car, took the center out of it and set my fixture up just to make sure the housing was straight. It was, I really didn't expect to find anything wrong there because the alignment checked good but I wanted to have a good look at everything anyway. I also had a real good look at the wheelie bars. The way these are put together is it has a piece of tubing slipped over the main bar that the cross bars are welded to. The outer tube has a couple of holes drilled in it and it is plug welded to the main bar. One of these outer tubes had the plug welds broke loose and by the marks on the tube looked like it was moving 3/8" on the main tube. So we checked the bars for square, drilled a couple of holes and welded it back up.
I pulled the clutch out and found the disc had worn thin enough that the lining had peeled about a 1" x 2" chunk off. I called Hayes and after discussing my set up with the "tech" guy we decided what disc I needed. At 1st he told me it would be 6-8 days to put one together but he eventually offered to put one together 1st thing the next morning and get it out to me by Thursday. I took my flywheel and pressure plate to my local clutch guy and had him freshen them up and set the pressure up to where I started with, about 620 lbs base pressure.  I put the clutch back in thursday afternoon and loaded everything up for friday.
So friday (the 14th) we take the car to the track and make our 1st attempt at a time shot. I do my burnout in 3rd gear and when I feel the car start to hook I clutch it and roll in to stage only this time as I felt the car start to hook it felt like the clutch broke loose. I tried the clutch and It felt ok so I staged. When I let the clutch out it slipped bad enough that it never tried to get on the back wheels. I took it to the pits and cranked the base pressure up about 150 lbs and tried it on the return road. It still felt like it was slipping so I turned the pressure up another 225 lbs and tried it on the return road again so I turned it up another 300 lbs and took it to the staging lanes. This time the clutch worked good enough to get the car on the back wheels some but it was still slipping pretty bad nad the car was still going left.  At this point there was nothing else I could do so we just ran the boy's jr and figured we'd give it another try next week. While we were waiting between sessions I pulled the clutch out and didn't see anything wrong with it. I called hayes the following Monday and after being referred to the main tech guy discovered  that the 1st guy had fixed me up with the wrong disc. It seems there are 2 different sintered iron materials and we need the aggressive one not the one I had. He told me to send it back and they would send me the right one.  
With the new clutch in the car we went back to the track the following friday (the 21st). It wasn't good. 1st time run the clutch slipped again! ARRRRRGH! I figured I wouldn't mess around I just cranked the base pressure all the way up to around 1400 lbs and tried again, It was better but still slipping and still going left. By now I have figured the clutch slipping is upsetting the chassis and making the car go left. The following weekend is the bracket finals, a 3 day race and I'm no better off than I was. The good news is Greg runnered up in jr.
I called hayes about 10 times over the following week and couldn't get them to call me back. The main tech guy was supposed to be checking with the buyer and make sure the disc they sent me was the right material.  When I finally talked the 1st tech guy I dealt with he said it was the right stuff and I should try more pressure?  They lolly-gagged around long enough that I was at the point where it was too late to get another clutch from them and get it set up for the car before the big race. So, I dug out the old clutch I used to run, had my clutch guy rebuild it and we went to the big race friday. 1st time run the car got up on the back wheels and only slightly went left. I had neutraled the suspension out when I put the rear back in the car so I put 1 flat of preolad back in it and  WOW, it went straight on the back wheels!!!  I was feeling pretty good about things now but it was short lived. 1st round it slipped the clutch and the car went left again. i went back to the trailer and cranked the pressure up on it again. I had won the round so we went back to the lanes. It still slipped and was going left. So I took the clutch out of the car and headed back home (60 miles) I got up early saturday thinking my clutch guy opened at 8 and waited there till 9 when he did open. We figured our best option at this point was to resurface the sintered iron disc and use the pressure plate from my old set up and step the pressure up.  we intially set it up with about 2000 lbs. back to the track for saturday's race, put the clutch back in and made a time shot. It slipped again. I figured we would only get 1 more run so I cranked it up the last 200 lbs we had and when that didn't work I was feeling defeated. I had run out of options and it looked like this race was gonna be a wash. Then I had a thought, when I was discussing my clutch problems with a friend last week he offered to loan me his old clutch set up. this is one of those 6 button bronze disc and is very aggressive and tends to be hard on other parts but hey I'm desperate. A quick call to this friend Skip (he's a chevy gut BTW) and he's off to pick the clutch up at his dad's garage, another call to my wife at home and she's off to meet him and pick it up. Eddy offers to meet her 1/2 way from the track and I pull the junk clutch out and help the boy with the jr for his time run. We have some time for all of this because the track is running the track champion race before the bracket eliminations start. With the borrowed clutch in the track owner allows us to slip in for an extra time run. The pass was nearly perfect. The driver wasn't quite ready for a good run so he messed up a little but it was still an outstanding run.  This clutch is heavier and the car is a couple of numbers slower so we didn't do so well in saturdays race. We made a time run and entered the 1 round gambler's race Sunday and feel like we know how to dial the car with this setup. The last pass we made was perfect. Unfortunately they had a timing system failure and the race has been delayed.
So it looks like my chassis problem wasn't a chassis problem at all. It was a clutch problem. I think there's a valuable lesson here.
 =;

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:27 am 
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Wow!! Im guessing you have wing nuts on that clutch =; ...Let us know what happens with hayes

there is one thing that's good is you have data from you old clutch so it won't be hard to see when it working...



I was wondering what happened to you =;

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:51 am 
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Chuck
Doesn't your data logger have an engine rpm,clutch rpm,and a drive shaft rpm?

I am surprised you never picked up on this several weeks ago.

Have you got any graphs that will show the differance in when the clutch was working and when it was slipping?

I am not being a smart a s s I am just asking


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:27 am 
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Chuck,

You said it started after you broke a crown wheel and pinion, maybe when you broke that you did some housing damage, maybe you should pull the housing and have someone check too see if its straight, bent housing by a few tenths will turn you.

Just thinking the coincidence of when it started

Trev

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:47 am 
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Beretta wrote:
Wow!! Im guessing you have wing nuts on that clutch =; ...Let us know what happens with hayes

there is one thing that's good is you have data from you old clutch so it won't be hard to see when it working...



I was wondering what happened to you =;


wing nuts?  we  don't need no stinkin' wing nuts...if I hustle I can change the clutch myself in about 25 minutes. I did build this car so it would be easy to work on.

Tom McDunnah wrote:
Chuck
Doesn't your data logger have an engine rpm,clutch rpm,and a drive shaft rpm?

I am surprised you never picked up on this several weeks ago.

Have you got any graphs that will show the differance in when the clutch was working and when it was slipping?

I am not being a smart a s s I am just asking


Tom,  I won't pretend to be an expert here. This is the 1st time I have run this type of clutch and in looking back at my graphs there is a small dip in the input rpm that shows up as a rise in clutch slip in the 1st few hundredths of the run. This dip becomes more pronounced in the runs that the car was going left. Problem is I can't find anyone running this type of setup that can tell me what normal is and I think I was too distracted with the car handling poorly to consider what was happening with the clutch.  Now I have my own info and you can bet I won't miss it again. I installed the logger when I went to this clutch so I am still on a learning curve. I could've kept this all to myself but thought if this info can help someone else avoid the headaches I have been dealing with I would share.  :-$

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:53 am 
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Clinker wrote:
Chuck,

You said it started after you broke a crown wheel and pinion, maybe when you broke that you did some housing damage, maybe you should pull the housing and have someone check too see if its straight, bent housing by a few tenths will turn you.

Just thinking the coincidence of when it started

Trev


Trev, like I said in the last post I did pull the rear and check the housing.  It may have done something to the clutch when the "crown wheel & pinion"  broke but at the start of this race season the car worked fine. It may have had something to do with track conditions that maybe slipped the clutch at the last race I went to last season. It was a different track than I normally race at so I just blamed it on the track.

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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:46 am 
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gearhead1011 wrote:
I could've kept this all to myself but thought if this info can help someone else avoid the headaches I have been dealing with I would share.  :-$


This is what we're all about Chuck and thank you for taking the time for that detailed post.  I post my failures and f**% ups as well as my sucesses so others can learn as I have learned a lot from you guys.  No sense in reinventing the wheel if someone else has already been there.

Good job!

George


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