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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:13 am 
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shrinker wrote:
But you cant use the serial data on any other logger as its proprietary logworks. Back when the LM-1 was the only thing they made ,Klaus told me that the analogue outputs were faster than the reported logworks screen. Unfortunately we cant ask Klaus anything now days. You may not see that on your LC-1's but I was told that is the case for the LM-1.



The guys at Innovate have happily shared with a number of people how their serial datastream works. Example, the guys at jbperf.com use the serial stream and make the data available on a canbus network, which IS relatively easy to use with other electronic engine management systems (so you can datalog 8 channels of O2 without having to run 8 analog inputs). But you have to be an EFI user to take advantage as I don't think most of the datalogging systems out there are Canbus programmable.

I'm running that setup on Gene Adams' & Dan Miller's engine masters entry. It works awesome.

Also, the LC-1 and LM-1 processors are *identical* - the only difference being the LM1 has an onboard LCD screen/gauge. The same logworks program works with both, and (if you can make the cables) you can mix and match LM1's with LC1s in that serial datastream. I.e., 7 LC1s plus 1 LM-1 will still work together in a serial chain.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Thats good that others can use the serial stream but I dont know of any data loggers that can. But its handy to get it into CANBUS form. I wonder who would be game enough to go CANBUS in a racing application. Just imagine the complications when the brake light globe blew and the drive by wire throttle decided to accelerate by itself. HA HA HA (thats what happens to some model cars here)
Even though you state the LM-1 and LC-1 are identical processors the units are not identical in speed. The LC-1 is far faster in response than the LM-1. I have them both and compared them and the LC-1 wins hands down. The difference is very obvious. Klaus told me that the LM-1, which is what nomad has, has faster response at the analogue outputs than its logworks data. So thats a tip applicable to the question. If I was going to use a LM-1 with a DL-32 logger I would do it with the analogue. If I was using a LC-1 I would do it with serial.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Location: Auburndale, Florida
We'll the 3759 cables finally showed up this afternoon. I've got everything running, just about. The DL-32 is doing exactly what it's supposed to when logging in real time. Even the NAPA temp sensor is working right and apparently correctly. It's tracking the dash gauge with in a couple of degrees.

The LM-1 and RPM convertor are not fully conversing with each other. Probably a configuration issue but , I've been up since 3 am and have run out of patience and maybe brains for the day. Tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:39 am 
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Location: Auburndale, Florida
I have also posted this on the Innovate Forum even though it seems dead there:

I got everythiing hooked up. I was able to do some initial real time tuning with the DL-32. All five channels were working correctly. I had added a CT sensor on channel one using a NAPA sensor and info from this forum. It worked fine and the temp tracked the in dash Autometer unit.

Later, in another session in the garage that same evening, I couldn't see the DL-32 gauges on the dashboard or that of the LM-1. The next morning I configured the channels again. Nada. At the race track that night when downloading off the SD card I would see the O2 and RPM off the LM-1 but, nothing on the DL-32 channels but, flat lines.

I fairly confident I've messed up in the configuration somewhere but, not sure where. I'm thinking I haven't saved the configuration I've programmed in the LM Programmer.

Thoughts? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:24 am 
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FYI for ya Bruce. NEVER turn on a DL-32 if you have something disconnected from the loop as they will go bonkers if you do. Oh, and welcome to the wonderful world of Innovate loggers. There is light at the end of that tunnel though and once you get it working and it stays that way for a week or so it will pretty much be OK until a ground doesn't make or some other little something caused one of your "things" not to register. I must have reprogrammed mine a half dozen times when I first got it going as I'm logging 18 channels, which just adds to the ways it can find to screw up.

There is a dash board configuration file located in the Logworks 3 directory that stores your gauge profile settings. I'll see if I can find that file name for ya some time today.

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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:39 am 
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shrinker wrote:
Thats good that others can use the serial stream but I dont know of any data loggers that can. But its handy to get it into CANBUS form. I wonder who would be game enough to go CANBUS in a racing application. Just imagine the complications when the brake light globe blew and the drive by wire throttle decided to accelerate by itself. HA HA HA (thats what happens to some model cars here)


just a heads up, but pretty much all the race dashes, most dataloggers, and pretty much every EFI ECU uses CAN. That's a pretty large number of race applications. I like it, it's a heluva lot simpler wiring job.


Meanwhile, Klaus must be keeping secrets because on their website they say that the LC1 and LM1 are *identical* internals.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:56 am 
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The LM-1 is far from "identical" Funny though they say that. The first time you fire up an engine on a LC-1 after using an LM-1 you go, wow is that fast!!.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:09 am 
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shrinker wrote:
The LM-1 is far from "identical" Funny though they say that. The first time you fire up an engine on a LC-1 after using an LM-1 you go, wow is that fast!!.


I've installed somewhere around 200 LC1s, and I have 3 LM1s of my own.

At least on my test bench, they're identical performance. I think Klaus was blowing smoke up your butt shrinker :---)


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:37 am 
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i say what i say about the speed difference from my own observations not anyone elses.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:53 am 
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shrinker wrote:
i say what i say about the speed difference from my own observations not anyone elses.



Interesting observations about the speed. I totally believe you. One thing I've noticed about LC1s and LM1s in particular is they're not very consistent, but I understand that to be because they're using entry level (El Cheapo) Bosch LSU 4.x sensors.

On a recent tuning job at Ray Bartons, on a former prostock Hemi, we used 8 AFX sensors. They gave a far more consistent behavior from one unit to the next, I attribute that to their much higher priced NTK sensor. Because of price, I'm far more used to the Bosch sensors and how they behave (inconsistent from unit to unit, but some of this will certainly be because of installation variables). Meanwhile, since you have an LC1, you should consider tuning with a sensor in each exhaust runner. The first time I did this, it opened my eyes considerably. That Pro Stock Hemi at barton's had as much as 40% difference in fuel requirements from one cylinder to the next - but once we got it nailed down it did 1107hp on 488 cubes with a much smaller cam than run in drag trim (this one's for open roadracing).


Also, as a heads up, (for the next time Klaus is sending smoke signals) the electronics to control each type of sensor are identical even in different brands of oxygen sensor controllers. The manufacturer of the sensor (Bosch, NTK) shares the control strategy with the vendors (AEM, Innovate, ECM, etc.) and the vendors simply install the chip and wrap it in whatever package they like. I know this because I spent a couple years working on an Engine Management (EFI) system and worked with a few sensor manufacturers... i.e., the circuitry that controls the Bosch LSU sensors in the innovate products wasn't designed by innovate, but they do design the circuitry that provides the analog and digital outputs.


Bosch's LSU series are the cheapest sensors, so they get the most sales.

There are some companies that make O2 sensors that cost over $1000 to replace. These are the sensors that most EFI calibrations are made with at the OEMs. Out of our price range!


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:55 am 
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Well Ken, the first time I could see the DL-32 in the log chain but, not the LM-1. That's when it worked right. When I finally saw both on the chain it didn't work. Darn good thing I'm retired 'cause I got the time.

hey I sent you and e-mail, well the the admin but, it just came back.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:58 am 
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Hi diesegeek; were a bit off track here but its interesting never the least.
I do measure multiple cylinders I have a ST-12, with 10 sensors. I only use my gear for my own installations with my own carburetor and I haven't had issues with cylinder variations. But you never know one day there may be. I find most of the AFR reading issues come from the varying cylinder efficiency not the carburetor.
As to the value of expensive systems I have had experiences where the readout was AFR 9:1 and there was no possible way it was that in reality. I mean I know how to calculate a jet and I know whats going down the barrels of the carby and its was junk AFR information. Fuel applicability to the situation has a lot to do with WB accuracy. I have had the same situation occur with the Innovate system but not the same ridiculous AFR as the NGK sensor, I actually double checked the NGK sensor with an LM-1 when I saw the errant AFR. I simply altered the ignition timing and the readings became normal range.

I demonstrated a series of tests that I posted on innovates forum years ago about the subject. Its been deleted because it was negative to their cause. It wasn't vindictive it was just factual information about WB's in general. They deleted a lot of good negative stuff when they shut the forum down for a few months. What i demonstrated was changes to secondary ignition energy and its effects upon the AFR reading from a Wideband verses the gas bench. The gas bench clearly showed the changes in gas species but read the AFR as unchanged which is of course what was happening.
I dont have trust in WB's of any type I'm afraid . I use them as an aid but not the absolute truth without backup from a gas bench and all the other observable signs and tools.


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:06 am 
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no argument here, ALWAYS better to us the multi gas analyzer - if you have the means!!


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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:43 pm 
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nomad wrote:
hey I sent you and e-mail, well the the admin but, it just came back.


Probably sent it to the wrong address. motorsportsvillage at yahoo dot com is the correct one. Try again and lemmie know if it doesn't make it.

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Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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 Post subject: Re: My DL-32 Logger
 Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:17 am 
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Location: Auburndale, Florida
I found a couple of loose terminals in the supplied terminal strip. I tightened everything up but, I suspect that eventually I'll have to change to the little black terminal strips I usually use.


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