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 Post subject: AFR meters
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:09 pm 
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For all of you that have asked about exhaust temperatures and AFR monitoring.

I would reccomend this one, which I think is very reasonably priced.

http://www.ngk.com/more_info.asp?AAIA=&pid=20509


NTK which is the other side of the business to NGK (the spark plug side) have a reputation worldwide for having one of the best AFR meters. I'v used them on and off for best part of 20 years now.

it also has a 0 to 5volt output which can be fed into a logger if you have that luxury. says it can be used for most any fuel (although the reading will always be on the gas scale) that shouldnt be too hard to convert.

5 years ago you would have paid well in excess of $1000 for one of these and that would have been one without a display.


Please note I am not telling you this is the best, I just happen to think that it is quite good value for money and also that the manufacturer is very well known in this field..

PS if anyone is reading this from NGK or NTK, then please send 2 evaluation units to NGK (uk) and I'll pick them up as they are only the other side of town.. oh look there goes another...oink flap...oink flap...oink flap..... (<<<<--- thats a flying pig to the ones that dont understand english humour...

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:28 pm 
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Sam, Im fairly sure that they have flying pigs where Mel is =; anyway, this looks like a good unit and looks to be helpful in tuning effert. What do you want for a AFR on a drag motor anyway???

Do you have one on your ride?? :-k Barry

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:09 pm 
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they are more reliable than an egt. they are not affected by an overly rich condition and are easier to tune with.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:32 pm 
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Beretta wrote:
What do you want for a AFR on a drag motor anyway???


Barry in my experience high performance engines should be safe at about 12.5 AFR, although with turbo engines it is often needed to reduce this to as low as 10.0 at higher speed boost conditions for the cooling effect.

you should not rely on an AFR meter to tune for you. it's an aid, you know that 12.5 is safe then start there and work up and down and see the effects it has on times etc.

I don't have one on my car, they are not available over here, or if someone does import them they will be a lot more than you can get them for over there.

I do have access to several of the professional versions of the one we are talking about but they don't come with a display, they are fed direct into the logger an displayed on screen, bit of a job to read the laptop in the altered.. another job I have to get round to.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:31 pm 
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Ok, Most say that egt is old tech for tuning but I do think if you have one in each cyd (like Chuck has in his Probe) there is a advantage. If you don't have them and you have a cyd missfire the afr may tell you what bank it is but it won't tell what cyd it was. Granted you really need a data logger for this so it can be on paper.. What do you think :-k ..Barry

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:37 pm 
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i say that a looger is the way to go. the ideal setup (i think sam said this in the past) is 8 egt and 2 afrs. but being low buck, i have been researching afr's for a while. lot of companies out there, but i dunnno what to get. the main thing i see is that it can't give you a false reading from the motor being too rich (raising the egt b/c gas is burning in the pipe)

i know you are supposed to install in the collector, but could you install in a single pipe? :-k

here are some compaines that i know make them....

fast (fuel air spark)

innovative motorsports

ngk (as mentioned above)

one more, but i don't remeber it off the top of my head.

the thing i want is for it to record during the run so i can play it back or print it out.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:07 pm 
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Beretta wrote:
Ok, Most say that egt is old tech for tuning but I do think if you have one in each cyd (like Chuck has in his Probe) there is a advantage. If you don't have them and you have a cyd missfire the afr may tell you what bank it is but it won't tell what cyd it was. Granted you really need a data logger for this so it can be on paper.. What do you think :-k ..Barry


I agree Barry. case in point, last run of last friday night. I never felt the car lose power or miss but the et was down slightly. check the egts (3rd section) in the following graph. the green line is cyl. 2 you can see it dropped for about .8 sec 2 seconds into the run. not hugh but probably why I ran a 5.488 on a 5.47 dial.
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I think both afr & egt have advantages as far as tuning an engine and I think having both would be ideal. I think what showed up on this run wouldn't have been noticable with an afr. Corey, I don't think you would want to install an O2 sensor in a single header tube. for one thing I think you need an average of the fuel mix and the other problem would be with the size of the sensor and the obstruction it would create in the average size header tube. the end of the O2 sensor is about 1/2 inch in diameter and would protrude into the tube 3/4 of an inch. not too much for a collector but a good percentage of a 1 3/4 inch header tube. the egt's are only 1/8 inch diameter and stick 1/2 way into the pipe.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:21 am 
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Now that is awsome!!! Chuck did you find the problem?? plug wire or?? :-k Any news yet???Barry

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:36 am 
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Beretta wrote:
Now that is awsome!!! Chuck did you find the problem?? plug wire or?? :-k Any news yet???Barry


I'll check it out later today. My guess is it'll be a spark plug. This is the second season on the plugs. The engine may be getting a little tired as it's due for freshening too.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:42 am 
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gearhead1011 wrote:
Beretta wrote:
Now that is awsome!!! Chuck did you find the problem?? plug wire or?? :-k Any news yet???Barry


I'll check it out later today. My guess is it'll be a spark plug. This is the second season on the plugs. The engine may be getting a little tired as it's due for freshening too.


5.48 and tired :-k Did you ever run in the 1/4???

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:45 am 
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not yet. I'm gonna try to make beechbend before the season's over though.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:37 pm 
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gearhead1011 wrote:
not yet. I'm gonna try to make beechbend before the season's over though.


i want to see how fast she goes in the 1/4. keep us posted chuck! i agree with the large % of the tube would be but out, and the afr is more for an average, i was trying to say that if someone made a sensor for each pipe that would be really nice (and expensive i'm sure).

does that data logger of yours have a place for o2 recordings?

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:39 pm 
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Buffjhsn wrote:
gearhead1011 wrote:
does that data logger of yours have a place for o2 recordings?


It sure does. It has 2 channels that are already set up for them and you can use a standard autmotive o2 sensor in it. the non heated ones are about about 20 bucks each. I will probably add them over the winter.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:18 pm 
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gearhead1011 wrote:
Buffjhsn wrote:
gearhead1011 wrote:
does that data logger of yours have a place for o2 recordings?


It sure does. It has 2 channels that are already set up for them and you can use a standard autmotive o2 sensor in it. the non heated ones are about about 20 bucks each. I will probably add them over the winter.


Like the 2 wire GM ones?? But there not wide band or are they, humm don't know....Barry :-k

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:01 am 
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Most lambda sensors give out 0.5 volts at lambda 1. (approx 14:1 afr)

useally 0.2 volts is very lean and 0.8 volts is very rich, now you should be able to read them with a voltmeter.

Ideally you would need to calibrate them against a afr meter or even a Co meter. once you know what volts you get at each value you could use a cheap volmeter with the scale marked for the values or even a plain old multimeter.

bear in mind that most of them are heated and if you use a non heated one it will need to get up to temperature before you rely on it.

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