Motorsports Village

New Engine
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Author:  Beretta [ Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  New Engine

=; Well since it looks like Island Dragway is finished =P~ I need to do a motor for my truck at 180 thousand miles and 200hp is going to be an issue so I came to this decision since I don't want to spend all I have or get a loan for a new to me truck...
Anyway looking for some input and suggestions..
Talked to my machinist and he has a block and a set of heads so this is what we come up with..
This is for my 94 C2500 with a 5.7 TBI and a 4L60E trans..
Bore and stroked 350 to 383..
GM iron heads 083 is what's stamped and there not swirl ports and they already have screw
in studs and have been lightly pocket ported with a 68 cc chamber.
Got a rotating assembly internal balance scat crank and rods with Probe pistons with a -12 cc dish.
Lunati hyd roller cam part #54760 213/219 @50 447/471 lift on 112..
Found a used for cheep 3704 Edelbrock TBI intake.
Also pickup a used 454 2" TBI and will have ti injectors cleaned they are # 17084327 and will
be good for 350hp at 35 psi.
I will need to replace the stock fuel pump with a TPI pump EP241 that is a easy swap no modifications
from what I am told. and will need an adjustable regulator to set fuel pressure.
I have spoke to a few chip re programers and both say it won't be an issue to tune. Basically purchase the prom and download turner pro and with an labtop go for a ride and log data and send it to them for adjustments. Sounds like a PIA but don't see anyway around it other than going with a carb..
I picked up a tack dash and got it in with a wiring diagram that Chuck sent me and looks like it rpms about 2800 to 3000 at 60mph with it in drive as it's not supposed to tow in OD.. I need to look into this some more to see if something can be done so I can tow in OD.
The track that I will be traveling to is 130 miles away and has some nasty hills but it is all RT 80 west highway..Other thing is it's in PA so bridge tole..
Really spoiled with the track so close to home as I can go 3 times back and forth on a tank of gas and this is going to a real expense as I don't think I can get there and back on on tank :- ..
Thanks guys

Author:  scoop [ Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine


Can you put in a 4L80E trans out of a big block truck? When I had a truck with an auto trans I towed in OD. But, it had a 454 in it and it was a dually 1 ton 4X4.Bob J

Author:  shrinker [ Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

I dont know what your US trucks looks like or weight etc but I will comment that the worst thing you can do is use an engine thats not big enough. Stroking the 350 to 383 is a good idea. Using a BB is bad because they are poor efficiency unless you use racing type heads etc. Also use a carby rather than TBI. It will make more power on a carby than TBI. And you can tune it. If your going to run a mild cam or other mods TBI is not the best option, your better off with port injection or a carby. Do this test to convince yourself of the problems associated with TBI. Get a timing light and attach it to a sparkplug lead and shine the light at the Throttle body injectors flow stream, then move the dial back knob on the light until you see no fuel coming out of the injector. There will be time period for each injector where it doesnt squirt any fuel. Move the light to different plug leads etc and play around. Then think about what is happening to the cylinder thats sucking air when the injector isnt firing. Thats why carburetors work better. At full wide open throttle of course the injectors will be full open and the differences between carbs and TBI go away, but the engine will still make more power on the right carby than it will on the right TBI.

I have done this test I'm about to tell you about a few times its always the same result but Ill tell you about one in particular. I had 2 BBC engine cars in the dyno shop, one was TBI the other was carby. The carby one was 427 the TBI one was 454, they made the same rear wheel HP within about 10kw of one another. Both engines made in the zone of 245kw at the wheels. This is the test I did on the same day etc. Strapped down the TBI car and brought it up to a load of 40kw at 4000rpm in top gear, I had the dyno set to hold constant speed, then I stabbed the throttle to the floor and off again as fast as I could move my foot. The TBI system responded fast enough to produce 147kw. Then we strapped down the 427 carby car and did the exact same thing. The carby responded with 241kw. Thats a BIG difference, and thats why carbys rule. I have done this test even on EFI port injection engines where we have removed the EFI system and installed a carby manifold etc and the same results happen there too. Carbys rule.

From what I know and what I can do with carbys (and I also do EFI as well by the way but i hate it), I realize that there is a different design philosophy behind a carby motor verses an EFI motor. The whole process of fuel preparation is different between the 2 systems. I keep saying that an engine is a fuel chemistry preparation machine and its the absolute truth. Making an engine that pumps lots of air is one thing, getting it to prepare the fuel optimally is a whole lot harder. Carbys are cheaper to work with to achieve that goal and they do not lack anything once correctly tuned. Correct tuning applies to EFI as well and if you have to send your chip to somewhere remote to have it tuned then thats going to be the downfall of the project. There is no substitute for tuning on the spot at the car over a long period of time. So my advice is to go with components that you understand and work with yourself.
Either get an EFI port injection system and learn how to tune it or go with a carby. However if you go EFI at least get a proper factory setup not some backyard welded in nozzle sockets somewhere in the runner. The position of the injector is very critical and when you start modifying an EFI engine from stock the injector type of spray pattern and the position has to be looked at by experienced people.

Author:  WR169 [ Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

Barry I had a 93 K2500 extended cab. 350/4L80E. I talked to GM performance at several races, Jet and a couple of dealers. I suggested the same as you. Build a 383 with big block TBI injectors. The response was the computer system would have to be reworked and with the companies that do that Specifically Jet. It would be hit and miss. Basically the chip is a solid build and it would take several tries to get it right as they get new data from the changes. Anything after 95 was a plug and play system that adjusted to what it was seeing.

Yeah I upgraded to a 2004 K2500 HD. with a crew cab and wished I had done it earlier. Yeah I took on a car payment after not having one for about 14 years. LOL

Author:  Beretta [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

Bruce, I was also looking at this system.
If you get time Bruce take a look at it but it does not control the functions of the E series trans but
Rob said you will need to get another ECM to control the trans..Everything with this system can be adjusted with a lab top..Me not being a computer wiz and trying to understand what is happening with
it wile driving is going to be another issue for me :- ... Also not sure what kind of support he has with this system but I can tell you there are may of these out there in use..
I understand what your saying but when do you drive with your foot on and off the throttle as fast as you can??? The TPS controls functions of the fuel delivery from what I understand.. A TPI would be good but not in the budget as what I looked at it is in the $2000 range...The complete motor is just over that price tag....

Steve I would love to get a diesel Ford or Chevy but just don't want to have payments as I own everything except my house :-k and not spending $$$$ is on my to do list =; ....

Author:  WR169 [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

I understand Barry. Just passing on what was told to me when I was in the same boat. =; The only other way to get around it is to get an old 700R4 non electrical and carb the engine. :-k

Author:  Ken0069 [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

Carb the engine?

How is NJ on emissions stuff and or engine modifications where emissions are concerned? As tough as they are on everything else regulation wise, I can't see an engine that is modified that much being highway legal there. :-k

Oh, and welcome to the long tow crowd ad my favorite track is 270 miles and 4.5/5 hours round trip.

Author:  Beretta [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

Ken0069 wrote:
Carb the engine?

How is NJ on emissions stuff and or engine modifications where emissions are concerned? As tough as they are on everything else regulation wise, I can't see an engine that is modified that much being highway legal there. :-k

Oh, and welcome to the long tow crowd ad my favorite track is 270 miles and 4.5/5 hours round trip.

Ken, from what I am told it's not going to be an issue with the correct tune sticking with TBI. Everything will be kept the way it is as far as converter etc. Inspection here is only a emission test at 2500 rpm in neutral for 30 seconds...
Not looking forward to the drive for sure and guys are telling me it's at least 2.5 hrs.. I was questioning that cause it's only O:) 130 miles away... :-
And 90 miles of that is on rt 80..

Author:  Beretta [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

scoop wrote:

Can you put in a 4L80E trans out of a big block truck? When I had a truck with an auto trans I towed in OD. But, it had a 454 in it and it was a dually 1 ton 4X4.Bob J

That's an option Bob as I am sure the trans will need to be rebuilt also...From what I checked into as it will also need to be reprogrammed for that and may need a 4X4 ECM to work properly.
I was also told that some 2WD trucks have the 4X4 ECM so I really need to get it down and get the #'s off of it.
I have to tell you that there is a ton of info on the net for this kind of stuff...

Surprised that Rick didn't commit on the cam I picked for this ;-) ..

Author:  shrinker [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

Hi Beretta, I know driving by stabbing the throttle that way is'nt practical I was just trying to demonstrate in a way racers understand of how much difference there is in response between a TBI and a carby. The reason for the difference is tied up with the blank spots of fueling that you see with a timing light. When there is no fuel the cylinders cant respond by accelerating the crank, in the mean time you've provided the cylinders with extra air by stabbing the throttle. This problem follows TBI all the way to high load towing conditions which is what you want this truck for. Its not until the load is high enough to hold all injectors on for considerable time to get enough overlap to average out the AFR does a TBI system fuel the cylinders evenly like a carby would do all the time/ So the solution is to use a carby, it works all the time. Carbys can give more fuel economy towing and more power when tuned correctly. The reason why most tuners now days get the results the other way around and swear by EFI s is because there isn't many left who can properly understand a carburetor.
If you have emission legislation to conform to then that may be another issue, you may not be allowed to alter the original equipment which would stuff up the carby idea.

My other point is that running cams in EFI engines doesnt always work out as expected. I see many instances of cam to injector interaction failures. People get sucked into some hot up kit and they are terrible, fuel washing the walls, HC's pouring out the back, not much power, but they run fully sick so there happy. but they eventually become not happy and have to get them fixed and it costs them heaps. All these issues are automatically avoided just by bolting on a stock 750 holley. There is no sending chips back, no computer failures on the roadside, confidence that the mixture is set for high load towing by yourself, the tuner, driving the truck and feeling what is going on. For me its the only way to go.

The cam injector interaction failures are always caused by the people having to big a camshaft and not enough compression. The cams would work with a carby but not with EFI, TBI or Port it doesn't matter. Any cam that has narrow LSA and a lot of overlap has reversion back up the runner, with EFI there isn't the fog of fuel in the runner to dampen that, So the engine runs poorly at low RPM and doesn't make efficiency towing along the highway unless the RPM's are up and that's not good for economy or a torque monster type deal.

Author:  Beretta [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

Shrinker, There is a muti port injection that is available. It is one that edelbrock made and has been dropped from there catalog. It's new in the box,,complete with intake fuel rale injectors module etc.
What do you think???

Author:  shrinker [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

If you want EFI then multiport is the way to go. I'd be asking edelbrock why there dropping it from the catalog, if its any good it would make money for them and they wouldn't drop it. l must add a comment at this time that Ive never seen an aftermarket computer thats as good as an OEM GM product. The ones they fit to the pontiac which is the Aussie made car is fantastic when you get the VCM suite edit setup for them. So much control in those computers for so little money, nothing beats it. If you go EFI multiport then dont get too big a cam is all I can say. Less is better and its surprising how much you can get from a little bit if its done correctly. Its the overlap you have to keep conservative.

Author:  Beretta [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

It was dropped cause there was almost no sales cause of only fitting 93 to 95. It also uses the stock ECM with a prom change to control the injection. It uses all the same sensors and even the throttle body with the injector pod removed...
Tuning should be the same as with the throttle body for the most part..

Author:  just primer [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

I don't know too much on this topic. However I have watched this guy on the tech boards for years and also e-mailed him with questions and he is very professional and seems to be very knowledgeable. He can be seen on the Accel site I believe with a Video showing his Cutlass, with an EFI installed. I believe that his system might have to be tuned and maybe on a Dyno at the same time by a Tech to get the right curve.

Central Florida
Accel/Mr Gasket, Erson and Lunati cams Dealer and EFI Tech
'72 GM Torch Red Cutlass Supreme Conv. 350 w/ Accel Multiport EFI.

Sorry if I am missing something or just made things more confusing. I only know Carbs.

Author:  jmech [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Engine

I built a TBI 383, had it custom tuned etc. What a turd and i'll never do it again. My suggestion is go with a carb or get a newer 6.0 powertrain and swap it in. My 01 2500 6.0 pulls very good and gets good milage after i removed the cats.

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