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What's wrong with dragster???
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Author:  jmarkaudio [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

We are at 14.5 to 1 on my brothers SB2 with E85, and for the price per gallon it's well worth it. Other than making sure all bare aluminum is anodized or alodine coated I've sen nothing adverse to using it.

Author:  Ken0069 [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

I guess I forgot you ran that thing in that roadster?

So Rick, do those bearings show detonation at all? :-k I know you built this thing to run pump gas but there's a chance that is what killed it?

Author:  rick360 [ Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

Since I know now it was the engine that caused the problem I moved this into the Engine section from the General section.

Here are some pics of the rod and main bearings. What does this look like to you guys? The upper and lower bearings on the mains and rods look about the same to me. Would detonation cause both bearing halfs to look like this?

Image

Image


Image

Image

Rick

Author:  want-a-be [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

I'd like to see the domes of the pistons of this engine if possible please.

Pix of the main caps and and the line bore of the block would be nice too please. Mainly wanting to see the mating surfaces between the caps and block.

Same for a rod or 2 also?

Possibly the mains were walking a bit and some of that flaking was nice enough to share with the rods,...maybe?

Which may be caused by detonation as you're thinking.

Don

Author:  Beretta [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

I ran one lean once and it pounded the center mains but only on the bottom and the rods looked ok not great but ok. Now I was running Mobil 1 oil so may be that helped...When I ran some small blocks the main caps always were moving around even with studs....
Looks to me that you may have run it out of oil....Maybe on the shut down???I know you have built lots of motors Rick but did you run the clearance tighter that normal??

Author:  gearhead1011 [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

If those are laid out as they came out of the motor I would say the majority of it is contamination (bearing material). The rear main and 2 rear rods seem to be in the worst condition. To me those would be the last to starve for oil but the 1st in line for contaminants. I guess the big question would be is what caused the bearings to fail and contaminate the oil? I think you stated initially you cut the filter open and found nothing so it would have had to have the bypass open at some point. Looks like it spun the one rod bearing so I would have to look close there for something that would have caused that bearing to fail. Maybe lean/detonation on that one? The only other thing is those 2 rod bearings on the bottom in the pic have a little brass showing on the edge like maybe they didn't clear the radius on the crank. I don't want to insult you but is it possible those were install wrong and the narrowed part of the bearing was facing the wrong way?

Author:  rick360 [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

want-a-be wrote:
I'd like to see the domes of the pistons of this engine if possible please.

Pix of the main caps and and the line bore of the block would be nice too please. Mainly wanting to see the mating surfaces between the caps and block.

Same for a rod or 2 also?

Possibly the mains were walking a bit and some of that flaking was nice enough to share with the rods,...maybe?

Which may be caused by detonation as you're thinking.

Don

I'll see about getting the pics you're asking about. The block is a Bowtie CNC block with billet steel splayed caps that was used for an 18º engine that made about 750hp and turned 9k. It never had any problems with cap walk with that engine and there is no indication of that now.

Rick

Author:  rick360 [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

Beretta wrote:
I ran one lean once and it pounded the center mains but only on the bottom and the rods looked ok not great but ok. Now I was running Mobil 1 oil so may be that helped...When I ran some small blocks the main caps always were moving around even with studs....
Looks to me that you may have run it out of oil....Maybe on the shut down???I know you have built lots of motors Rick but did you run the clearance tighter that normal??


I ran Mobil 1 also. It was running lean when it was in 2-barrel mode. Found out when I dyno'd it the jets were a couple small. Jetting should have been good since dynoing and going in the dragster. I don't see why detonation would damage the upper mains or the lower rod bearings.

I saw the oil light in the shutdown on two of my 1/4 mile license runs. I put an accumulator on it after that, but the track always raced S/P in 1/8 mile so I didn't ever need it.

The clearances were .0022-.0024 on the rods and a little more on the mains. The rods are 2.00" (Small Journal). I was running 5w30 oil.

Rick

Author:  axegrinder [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

Those bearings are nasty! Looks like they've been dipped in acid.

Author:  rick360 [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

gearhead1011 wrote:
If those are laid out as they came out of the motor I would say the majority of it is contamination (bearing material). The rear main and 2 rear rods seem to be in the worst condition. To me those would be the last to starve for oil but the 1st in line for contaminants. I guess the big question would be is what caused the bearings to fail and contaminate the oil? I think you stated initially you cut the filter open and found nothing so it would have had to have the bypass open at some point. Looks like it spun the one rod bearing so I would have to look close there for something that would have caused that bearing to fail. Maybe lean/detonation on that one? The only other thing is those 2 rod bearings on the bottom in the pic have a little brass showing on the edge like maybe they didn't clear the radius on the crank. I don't want to insult you but is it possible those were install wrong and the narrowed part of the bearing was facing the wrong way?


Don't worry about insulting me, if you think something, say it.

I thought it looked like contamination myself. My oil filter bypass was always blocked. Then when I put the accumulator on it had a special adapter to connect it in after the filter. I've thought a lot about whether it's better to plumb it before or after the filter. I chose "after the filter" at the time because I thought the oil filter check valve would keep the oil moving in the right direction. I now wonder if there was dirt in the new accumulator??

The bearings are laid out in pairs as they came from the engine. The spun bearing was #7 and the one that has the edges to copper was #8. I think #8 edges were damaged from the #7 bearings flattening out into the #8 bearing on that side.

In the process of cutting the filter open I didn't really look for tears or if the filter was intact internally. Maybe the filter was broken and letting dirty oil get thru?? The filter is a AC Delco PF1218.

Rick

Author:  Ken0069 [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

Just got off the phone with Kowalsky and he says sounds like an oiling problem to him, ie, fast cars require harder braking and he says that he's seen several engines even with accusumps have oiling related failures this year, especially if you leave it in gear in the shut down area. That's the main reason I always go to neutral at the stripe. Kowalsky's cure for this is a dry sump oiling system or you can try neutral at the stripe.

I read an article, I think by Smoky Yunick years ago where he stated that an SBC engine operating at 7,000 RPM would pass like 8 gallons of oil through it in a minute's time. So the oil in that accumulator isn't likely going to be enough in the shut down area if the transmission is still in gear @ that RPM.

Author:  want-a-be [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

What kind of pumping system are you running on this engine? Wet or dry sump? 9krpm seems a bit high for a wet sump.... Or I've not recommended anything much over 8k on the wet sump anyways.

Just a thought... 8-[

Don

Author:  Ken0069 [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

Don it's a wet sump SBC with 23* heads that Rick worked himself. Don't know where that 9K number came from but I'd venture to guess that this engine never saw much over 72/7400 on a pass?

Author:  want-a-be [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

rick360 wrote:
I'll see about getting the pics you're asking about. The block is a Bowtie CNC block with billet steel splayed caps that was used for an 18º engine that made about 750hp and turned 9k. It never had any problems with cap walk with that engine and there is no indication of that now.

Rick


Ken,

I was thinking he meant 9000rpm when he said this. Maybe I am misunderstood though. :-k

Don

Author:  Ken0069 [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's wrong with dragster???

Don I think this is the second evolution of this block. He is saying that he had used it with an 18* head setup but that was a good while ago. This latest evolution is documented here on MSV and he used nothing but top shelf parts in it. It's a flat top "pump gas" engine that started out this time around in a Roadster he had prior to the dragster that it's been in for the last few years.

He did have some oiling problems early on in the shut down area which is common for wet sump engines running that fast. Hence the accusump.

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