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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:46 am 
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Good job guys. When you consider the competition and the resources they have available you did a great job. So are you going to enter again or was it just a one time deal?

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:57 pm 
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We are not sure about next year. We got accepted because we had something different. We claimed we could win with a cast iron GMPP vortec bowtie head, when we'd be competing against CHI headed Fords and LS chevys. So for us it would be best to just find more power/score with this engine, yet we are less likely to be accepted if we apply to bring the same warmed over combo back.

For Popular Hotrodding, and Engine Masters Magazines, it would be a boring story if every engine was a CHI headed Ford or LS chevy yet they certainly have an advantage over the head we went with and most other heads. For the average reader or PH and EM magazines, an iron headed 383" SBC is more in line with what they may have sitting in the garage, or be able to buy for their next build. A GMPP iron vortec bowtie is about $675 a pair bare. Does anyone know the price of a pair of CHI heads? I haven't worked on other engines beside a SBC, so it would be foolish for me to give a different engine my very first try at something like the EMC.

Just to show how close this competition can be, we are in 5th place, but just 17 points out of 2nd place. We needed just a little over 3lbs more tq average to be in second place. It's a lot harder than people think to improve the score with a fixed rpm range like this., and It's much easier to improve peak HP than score. Our 383 engine made 605 peak hp on the engine masters dyno. We can improve peak HP 10-15 HP with the parts we have, by just backing the cam up and tighten the valve lash a little. Power after peak tq goes up when we did that every time but the score went down. If we put the cam in straight up along with tight valve lash and pull it past 6500rpm we can improve peak HP 20-25. We tried 5 different cams in this engine and all 5 scored the best when they were advanced enough to kill the top end power some.

It could be we were accepted because they thought anyone claiming they can win with iron heads would have to be comical to watch on the dyno, and the resulting chaos in the dyno room would make for good photography. =;

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:58 pm 
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I think you did yourselves proud.

Congratulations again! \:D/

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:46 am 
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Rick, and I decided 150 dyno pulls wasn't enough abuse for the engine masters engine, so we put it in Rick's dragster for a few passes at the track. If all goes well we'll make a few passes at KCIR today.

How fast can a 23* iron headed 383 go in a 1770LB dragster?

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:56 am 
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randy355 wrote:
How fast can a 23* iron headed 383 go in a 1770LB dragster?


5.30s @ 128

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Did they supply you with a dyno printout?


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:12 pm 
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5.40s 8-[

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:13 pm 
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My 23˚ head 427 has been 5.28 at 1850 lbs. A good 383 at almost a hundred pounds less should be close.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:49 pm 
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Well we got a couple runs in. The track was crazy with street cars wanting to get a run before this track gets closed for good.

I weighed it when I got home - 1810lbs race weight instead of the 1770 Randy estimated. The cast heads and apparently heavier World block put 60 more pounds in the car over my 414.

This is using the same converter (~5500 w/383), gear (4.30) and slightly overkill tires (16x 34.5) that are normally on my car. No opportunity to do any tuning with the huge crowd there and 1.5-2hrs wait in the lanes. [-(

The best ET was ...
60 - 1.181
330- 3.451
660- 5.396 @ 125.96
1000- 7.093
1320-8.545 @ 154.26

Weather was also not good for this time of year - Density Altitude=1773 by my instruments. Uncorrected baro =29.06 temp = 65º and RH=62% .

When I take my most recent runs and factor the extra weight and todays weather my engine would have run a 5.267 or about .13 faster than the 383. This figures to be about 610 corrected HP (it dynoed 605 peak in EMC) but my engine dynoed 635 on a different dyno than the 383 has been run on but it figures to be more like 650-660HP using the same calcs based on ET, weight and weather. Different dynos read different.

Rick


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:36 am 
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rick360 wrote:
Well, it's all over for us now. The top 3 teams in each class pull off Friday for the finals. We finished 5th place in the street class. Our official score was 2394.2 and 4th was 2394.5 even 2nd place was only 17pts away at 2411, but 1st (at least as far as qualifying) was at 2470 (S.A.M. - School of Automotive Machinists) using a Ford with CHI heads on it. Not quite a fair fight with the 23º iron vortec bowtie.

We got the privilege of meeting Adger Smith (we never could get him to take that bribe during tech) and dieselgeek as well as some other engine builders. Lots of fun and interesting.

For the Extreme class the top qual is Bischoff, then McKeown and then S.A.M. Kaase was in 5th place.

Thanks Barry for the links. Their site is not very user friendly.

Rick

I believe I saw you guys back in the tear down area where they were taking pics of the motors. I was with the Early Hemi Team Hot Heads/Miller group with Geek. Hard to put faces with screen names sometimes, wish I could have talked to more people from these boards.

Nick Smithberg


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:06 am 
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Hi Nick, we talked to several of the guys on the Hot-Heads Hemi team back in the teardown building so I probably talked to you. I know Scott now (dieselgeek) but I am not sure which one of the guys you are for sure. Are you the bigger guy in the bunch? If not which one in the team pic in the PHR article?

In the pic at this link from the EMC I am the one with the blue sweatshirt and light tan hat changing the air bleed. Randy has the black Chevy hat behind me and our friend Tommy on the left who got roped into going to help out.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/1110em_2011_engine_masters_challenge_monday_street_division_updates/photo_08.html

Rick


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:19 pm 
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I'm the young pup of the group (29 years old). I talked to you guys just a little bit back there, wished I could have talked more to alot of people now that I know who they are.
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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:42 pm 
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shrinker wrote:
Did they supply you with a dyno printout?


Yes they did. Was you wanting some info off it?

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Nick, any ideas on how to improve the score on our engine?

How about changes you'd make on yours if you had one more try?

How to increase the peak TQ per cubic inch, without raising the rpm level is the important question.

We made 1.40 pounds of tq per cubic inch. The first place engine in our class made 1.419. The second place engine actualy had the highest peak tq per cube with 1.438. We would need to make 550 lbs of tq to equal the 1.438 of the highest engine. That's 11 pounds more than we made.

One thing I'd do after seeing the results of our last dyno session, is increase the MCSA of the ports some and the area just before and after the MCSA, and then add enough epoxy in the intake runner to keep the overall average intake tract csa the same.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:19 am 
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Our setup is pretty unique and yes I would make changes which I get to do again this year.

Have you had the heads on a flowbench to check flow and airspeed? How about doing an airspeed profile? I would try to keep an average airspeed throught the whole tract if at all possible. Its pretty typical to move the pushrod wall over to gain CSA and lower airspeed which is usually too quick to begin with on those heads. I didn't get to really look at your stuff close but maybe I could help give some suggestions. Feel free to email me at smithbergracing@gmail.com if you don't want info on a forum.

My goal is to R&D what we had last year and figure out what we need to do this year. Last year we were lucky to get it finished to have a showing for Danny! Alot of info was lost or just not even known, we were less than optimal but we were out of time and money anyways so at that point you show up to see what happens.

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