Login    Forum    Search    FAQ

Board index » Racing Forum » Engine & Cylinder Head Tech




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:03 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:38 am
Posts: 11804
Location: Coming At Ya!
OK so this intake seems to have been built on a set of heads that were angle milled but didn't have the intake face corrected as there was an average of .070 difference from top to bottom on the intake flange. Notice in this first pic just to the right of Mr. Bogg's RFD logo, where the intake meets the head that there is a slight gap there at the bottom. You can also see that at the top of that intake flange it is sitting on the head.

Image

This next photo shows the milling machine setup and how much that flange was off. Notice down in the black area there is a scribed line that is 3.5 inches from the top of the flange and that is where the cut will finally end up. In this pic we're about half way there with the cut that's being made.

Image

This picture shows how good these digital cameras are as that tool in the machine is turning at 660 RPM. It's called a fly cutter and uses lathe tools that are either carbide insert or high speed steel. High seed would work better on aluminum but I don't have one long enough.. The carbide insert one in the tool holder has an extension welded on it to make it that long.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do!

Image

Now, having said all that I'm at a point where I've got to make a decision. Once I got the intake faces to match my heads, it lined up perfect! No s**t! I'll bet that won't happen again in a million years as there's no rock or anything so that brings me to another scenario. Since I've been having so much trouble with gaskets coming apart, I'm seriously considering running this thing without one, ie, RTV it and run it just to see what happens! Reason for this is that if I use a gasket, I've got to machine the gasket thickness off the flanges and I really don't want to do that since I already took about .070 off the top of the flange.

So what I'm looking for here is some opinions on running this intake with RTV instead of a gasket since the fit is so good?

_________________
Big Boyz Toyz!

Image

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

William Pitt, British Prime-Minister (1759-1806)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:11 pm
Posts: 2749
Location: Shepherdsville, KY
It might be a hassle to get it done but I think cut it for o-rings would be the best way to go.

_________________
Chuck Woloch

Chuck's Automotive
Full line Computech dealer
chucksautomotive@yahoo.com
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:49 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:38 am
Posts: 11804
Location: Coming At Ya!
gearhead1011 wrote:
It might be a hassle to get it done but I think cut it for o-rings would be the best way to go.


Chuck you got to remember that I'm cheap! Already had that suggestion from local guy but that's a couple of hundred dollars that could be used somewhere else.

It'll be RTV or machine it for gaskets, which I can do myself. They make an .030 gasket so I think that wouldn't hurt strength of the flange but what I'm really after is eliminating a potential gasket failure. I haven't contacted Greg at Superformance to see if they have that new gasket material in an .030 thickness. If I were to go the gasket route he'd be the first one I'd call.

Basically what I'm looking for is a reason this will not work?

_________________
Big Boyz Toyz!

Image

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

William Pitt, British Prime-Minister (1759-1806)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:41 pm
Posts: 407
Location: Bronson,MI
IMO your asking for trouble without the gasket, we've done this in a pinch & never had luck with the "right stuff"

Fel-Pro sells gaskets with a metal shim in the middle that works well, or cometics are great intake gaskets. Mr gaskets have been the major pain on my motors.

_________________
David Lanning
IHRA NHRA 387B

http://www.nyesautomotive.net
http://www.diamondracecars.com
Fleenor Racing Glides
"get one before one gets you"


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:03 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:38 am
Posts: 11804
Location: Coming At Ya!
Hammertime wrote:
we've done this in a pinch & never had luck


And just what was "unlucky" about it? How close was the intake match to the heads? If you had a gasket in it, then tried without one I can see why there was a problem as the intake would be a gasket thickness (usually .060+) too low.

At this point mine is a perfect match.

Be more specific about why it did not work!

_________________
Big Boyz Toyz!

Image

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

William Pitt, British Prime-Minister (1759-1806)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:41 pm
Posts: 768
Location: Morrison, Co
Ken,

If you're gonna use RTV, try this stuff. It's Mack spec silicone, and it's the best stuff I've ever used on anything. If you live anywhere near a Mack truck dealer, they will have it in the parts department. Cost is about the same as any other stuff you can get.

Mark

_________________
Mark Goulette
Owner/driver, Livin' the Dream Racing Dragster
Speed Kills, But It's Better Than Going Slow!!!
http://www.livinthedreamracing.com


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:21 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:38 am
Posts: 11804
Location: Coming At Ya!
nlmsc33 wrote:
I wouldn't try it because of the possible LARGE intake leak you could develop let's say on the launch that could burn a piston before you finished that pass.

The risk to reward doesn't favor it.


Out of curiosity.... did you ever check the single plane for fit like you did the tunnel ram??


Mel, the way that tunnelram fits now, even if no RTV were used around the ports I seriously doubt that there would be enough vacuum leakage at WFO to do anything. You have to remember that at WFO manifold vacuum goes to very near zero, at least mine does. Only shows around .5 in hg down track. The only thing that would happen would be a water seep on the ends, which will not happen with RTV around those openings. It's THAT close!

As far as the other intake goes, I corrected that one after the engine was assembled. I sat it on with .062 washers on the 4 corners and used a feeler gauge to to measure how it needed to be machined top to bottom and end to end. Mind you most if not all automotive machine shops setup heads and intakes for machining with a bubble level. I set mine up with indicators, ie, one to set the manifold parallel to table travel, or in the case of mine, with .003 and .005 taper end to end to match the heads and a second indicator to sweep the head relative to the intake flange to get it where I want it to be. I don't remember the exact figures but the original Dart intake wasn't that far off.

And while we're still talking gasket failures, I've had this same problem with the "Junk" engine, which was a different block with the Brodix heads and intake that were "out of the box", ie, no machine work done on either.

George had problems with gasket failure, oobob has and so has Hammer and I believe Tanner has had this same problem so I don't think that fit or alignment is the problem. Greg Travis at Superformance Products told me that he though that methanol was the problem as it dissolved the glue that they used to assemble those gaskets, which are actually three pieces bonded together.

I took the old intake with failed gasket still in place to Kowalsky yesterday and talked to him about what I wanted to do. His suggestion was to "O" ring the intake ports but that's too much money. He couldn't tell me that what I wanted to do would not work and he also agreed that it was worth a try just to find out.

You can probably tell that I've pretty much decided to give this a try. I was and am still waiting for someone to give me some compelling reason that it won't work. There's a couple of other things I've got to do before it gets bolted on so that probably won't happen for a couple of weeks yet.

Still open for info/discussion on this!

_________________
Big Boyz Toyz!

Image

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

William Pitt, British Prime-Minister (1759-1806)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:15 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:20 pm
Posts: 1457
Location: Missouri
The water is the only real danger. It WILL ruin it if it leaks inside the engine. The ports should be fine and will seal ok with just silicone. I always use silicone alone for the front and rear intake seals and it holds crankcase vacuum fine with a lot thicker layer of silicone. As close as these are that won't be a problem. You might want to use something to reach inside the runners to wipe off the excess silicone that will squeeze into the port when you tighten it down.

Sealing the water up may be a little tougher, but I also think it will work. Alcohol or laquer thinner to clean first and should be good.

Rick


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:30 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:38 am
Posts: 11804
Location: Coming At Ya!
Well, I guess this is all for naught! My distributor won't fit? O:) The guy I bought this manifold from is also selling a MSD Billet distributor and I incorrectly "assumed" that he had run it with this intake but a PM to him over on RJ says no, he has a front mount and just had the oil pump drive plug in the distributor hole??

So here I sit with an intake that I can't use unless I spend another $1400 that I don't have for a belt drive and a front mount distributor! DAYUMN IT! I should'a known something was going to hork up! :-({|=

I THINK IT'S TIME FOR A DRINK. HELL, I THINK I'LL MAKE IT A DOUBLE!

_________________
Big Boyz Toyz!

Image

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

William Pitt, British Prime-Minister (1759-1806)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:12 pm
Posts: 1215
Location: Adelaide Australia
When you add the gasket all it does is move the manifold up a bit. You have to port match it anyway.
So get on the mill and lathe make a system to mount a dizzy onto the manifold up high and cut the shaft on a stock dizzy and make a double universal jointed shaft to drive the dizzy from the original location. Surely you can figure out a way to do it for nothin'


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:20 am
Posts: 357
Location: Wodonga, Australia
Ken,

Grab your little Dremel grinder and grind a groove about 20 thou wide and deep around each intake runner and water jacket, then put in a raised bead of silicon and let it set for a few days. There you have your poor mans o ring setup.

Oh and all you that laugh, its been done before and worked fantastic.

_________________
VK Commodore
383 Holden
2 speed Glide
Everthing on this car is all done by myself
650 HP Plus 300 Nos
Best so far
1.38 60 ft, 6.3 1/8 at 110 mph and 10.2 at 135 mph, long way to go before i reach my low nine hey


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:39 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:38 am
Posts: 11804
Location: Coming At Ya!
TMC might have an old Mallory distributor to try although at this point I'm not sure that anything will work. If that doesn't work then it probably will wind up back on RJ for sale. I've enjoyed the power of this engine but it's been an extreme pain in the ass from day one! This is just another episode in the never ending saga! I'll have to think about what to do over the next few days but it doesn't look good at this point!

_________________
Big Boyz Toyz!

Image

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

William Pitt, British Prime-Minister (1759-1806)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:39 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:20 pm
Posts: 1457
Location: Missouri
Ken0069 wrote:
Well, I guess this is all for naught! My distributor won't fit? O:)


What exactly do you mean by "WON'T FIT"? Dizzy too long or too short? Hole in wrong location? Do you need a slip collar dizzy?

Rick


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:07 pm
Posts: 1422
Location: Florida
What about this one?
http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Dis ... butor.aspx


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:20 pm
Posts: 5852
Location: N.J.
Ken, I have a Mallory Unlite dist if TMC don't have one and if it will work for you
you can have it.... ;-) I gutted one and tig welded the shaft together and was in the Vega for well till I get the Beretta......

_________________
Image
running E85
Best ET 8.07
Best MPH 170.71
Barry


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Board index » Racing Forum » Engine & Cylinder Head Tech


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron