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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:03 am 
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jmarkaudio wrote:
So where does this lead us? How can we make the droplet size smaller without causing turbulence?
The demon is doing the job already. Are you referring to turbulence of the air or the fuel.
What happens is you emulsify the fuel in a large well with some air from the e-bleeds, then when you send it to a downleg style booster it exits out of a large hole so its stays as it was emulsified in the well. So thats a logical process. The tube discharge style systems like C&S work the same way.
The opposite situation to the down leg is the annular. Its quite a lot different because when you send it to an annular discharge booster it has many small exit holes. The emulsion doesnt exit those small holes in the same state as it was in the main well. Whenever you send the emulsion through a small enough restriction you lose the emulsion.
jmarkaudio wrote:
I would think the fuel droplets with the annular would be better than the downleg Demon booster

Dont limit your investigation by assuming that the Dominator has smaller drops just because its got annular boosters, The WB and the BSFC are telling you a different story, work on that.
jmarkaudio wrote:
We can put a bar style booster in the Dominator, take out the restriction at the booster to maintain a more laminar flow, but then won't that hurt the dispersion of fuel compared to the annular boosters?

If you do a bar you will loose signal and the main jet will get even bigger because you dont have the booster amplifying the depression. Remember the Booster outlet is higher because the booster is an amplifier with its depression above the height of the main venturi. Everything will change. You could redesign the whole body to overcome that obstacle. You would have to realign the bar so its in the main venturi (like the SV-1) but that will take away a large chuck of CFM of your small Dominator barrels. A booster technically only alters the CFM a tiny bit from an open venturi with no booster in it.
I wouldn't be concerned about dispersion, I think the main issue is the restrictions within the annular booster and the resultant effect upon the emulsion.
Drilling more holes in the annular boosters wont work, what you need is one large hole like the Demon has. Then it might get close to doing what the demon does.
I think the best booster is the dogleg with a step.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:08 am 
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By bar booster, I'm talking about the straight leg booster similar to the ones in the small 4150 carbs. It's a half tube going through a booster sleeve, not just a bar like the SV!. I'll post a picture later.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:15 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:11 pm 
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If you have them it would be worth a try as I have no opinion on there performance value.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:25 pm 
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THAT is the booster that is in my old style 8896 Dominator that I converted to 2 circuit on gas! O:)

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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:08 pm 
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Location: Auburndale, Florida
Made 9 pulls today. We used an 850DP I built from a "kit". It's not an HP and the choke housing had been milled off. The boosters are the stock 850 downlegs. They have a .178 diameter and no step. We used BLP 51241-5 metering blocks with .185 mainwell exits.

Today we worked on emulsion to flatten out the fuel curve. We ended up with this emulsion. .014, blank, .018, blank, and .022. Jets were 96 Holley on the final pull.

We made 540HP@7100 and 454TQ@5400. Averages were 451HP and 432TQ. BSFC was a minimum of .508, max of .694, and an average of .578. AFR was in the 7.8:1 range. I think it's fat and needs to have the MJ reduced a bit. Maybe a 94 Holley.

I'm not sure when we'll get back to the dyno but it'll be interesting to see what we can do. In the meantime I have some data to look over to see what we've learned and where to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:42 pm 
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So thats getting close to what it did a few years ago on gasoline. The BSFC's are varying too much at the moment so some work to do there. Look at the consistency of the BSFC how much it varies one data point to the next. Plot it on a graph.
Look at the actual fuel consumption too and plot that. Actual fuel consumption is closer to air consumed or backpulses etc causing disruption. Without air flow readings you have to assume a few things. Sometimes erratic movements in the power like say it goes down between some data points or it doesnt increment the same increase per sample can give you clues to think about with reversions or turbulence etc.
You can really save a lot of time with an ignition scope.

Is this dyno a brake or inertia type?


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:44 pm 
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I'd have to remeasure but I think the mainwell exits were .175 on those blocks Bruce.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:45 pm 
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It's a brake, 901 SuperFlow.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Superflow water brake.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Thats good then, you can hold the motor at a RPM or slowly ramp it and see more detail.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:42 am 
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While this isn't to the actual production of HP or a nice fuel curve, this is interesting. During yesterday's session I noticed that the intervals between pulls were a lot shorter than with gas. By the time I downloaded the O2 info, got the results printout, and recorded the same in our notebook it was time to go again. In four hours we got 9 pulls. Had we not had to stop to drill emulsion orifices I'd venture we could have done 10.

One might wonder about our selection of emulsion choices such as the .014, blank, .018, blank, and .022. We had changed from .024, blank, .026, blank, blank. The former emulsion set was just slightly less in total area than the latter. Our thinking was how would things change if we kept a similar amount of emulsion and just changed where and how it happened. We saw a positive change in HP and TQ and it pretty much flattened the fuel curve out. We then went from 98H jets to 96H jets and then saw our final 540HP. The curve is still a little lean at the lower end of the RPM scale. I believe we can fix that by moving the .014 eulsion from the top to the second e-hole. If that shows a positive results then we can move on and further lean the overall mixture.

We've made a lot of mistakes along the way with this but, I see that as we've learned what not to do. It's darn bit better tha beating a car up and looking at ET slips for incremental changes and hoping track conditios didn't affect things. At the end of the day we're still not racing dynos but, cars.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:06 pm 
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So what you do now is you try to answer this question. Why is the fuel curve different to how it would be if its was a stock carby on gasoline?
Obviously you have an unusual e-bleed combination and the fuel curve would possibly be something similar on gasoline, so why have you chosen to go with what you have?
The .014" bleed wont pass much air at all at high CFM demand. So it seems to me that your trying to simulate a moving e-bleed system.
How about you try a run by blocking the HSAB and see how the curve changes, then you get some idea of what the passages etc are doing. Id richen the main jet first just in case, then chase it back. Then you will know what effect the e-bleeds have on density. Then Id use just one e-bleed and position it so that it tries to overcome what you see wrong with those 2 test suggestions.
Are you will to give it a go?


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:03 pm 
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shrinker wrote:
Obviously you have an unusual e-bleed combination and the fuel curve would possibly be something similar on gasoline, so why have you chosen to go with what you have?
The .014" bleed wont pass much air at all at high CFM demand. So it seems to me that your trying to simulate a moving e-bleed system.


I think you may be on to something, and I have wondered about using more smaller emulsion for some time now, just never had the time to play with it. What I think may be happening is that the fuel needs emulsion down low much like gas, more smaller bleeds help maintain the fuel consistency better than larger emulsion and give it enough to help with vaporization. At higher flow rates the small bleed size limits the emulsion and keeps the fuel laminar longer, fuel is richer down low due to the emulsion, richer up top due to the limit of the abilty of emulsion to flow, so a smaller jet helps at both ends. Bleed placement sets the curve. As to how well this would work with gas? Good question. I've got an idea on metering blocks for the upcoming challenge I'll have to run by you.


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 Post subject: Re: Another E-85 Convert
 Post Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:02 pm 
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If you drill a long setscrew and use that for the HSAB you will get better control to complement the staging E-bleeds. Length drag is important to understand and get right.
jmarkaudio wrote:
give it enough to help with vaporization
Thats the key effect happening here. The dogleg booster allows you to go that way.


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