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My E85 1150
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Author:  jmarkaudio [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  My E85 1150

Well I finally put it on and started it up. Let me back up first, the first thing I did this morning was put a Davinci carb I reworked for a friend, made it a 2 circuit. I replaced the bar style boosters with annular, it was an old style 9375 hat SHOULD have had them on it. Evidently for whatever reason he changed them, I changed them back to 12 hole annulars. Reworked 850 metering blocks, the whole 2 circuit conversion. Put it on the car, set the idle speed, opened the mixture screws from 1 to 1 1/8. Clean as a whistle when I hit the throttle against the brake, backed off, and hit it again right away. Good feeling.

So anyway, started up the E85 carb after the above, including emptying and then flushing the fuel system. Set the mixture screws initially about 1 1/2 turn, adjusted them a 1/4 turn more. May need to go down a tad on the IAB's but it's close. Got it warm, came up slowly on the brake to see how it sounded, then did a couple quick hits against the converter, clean as a whistle. I need to put O2 bungs in my headers next, to make sure it is not on the lean side before going on a full pass.

The initial specs are as follows:

Old Style 9377

Custom modified annular boosters, pics below.
Banjo passages - .185
Booster pins - .181
Metering block angle channel - .175
Mainwell - As delivered #2 Taper - About .160 at the bottom, .180 at the entrance to the angle channels
Squirters - .040

Kill bleed - .028

E-Holes
#1 - plugged
#2 - .024
#3 - plugged
#4 - .024
#5 plugged

t-slot - open
IFR - .046
IAB - .055
MAB - .025
Primary Jets - .129
Secondary Jets - .134
PVCR - .073
PV - Alcohol 4.5
N&S - BLP .140 viton


As you see the passages get progressively larger to minimize turbulence, the only thing I need to do is pull the bowls back off and look at the passage on the gasket. May need a little trimming there. I also worked every passage to clean up sharp edges the best I could to make smooth transitions. The part I think may be most important is in the booster banjo's and booster inserts. I tried to think of the best way to add area without just making a big hole, and came up with slots in the inserts. Three slots, under pressure the fuel fans the width of the booster, under vacuum with water it looks like it pulls real even. I positioned them with one slot opposite the hole, to force the fuel to go around the banjo. To make the fuel transition to the inserts better I rounded the sides of the outlet of the banjo's, if you look at the booster tester I made closely you can see what I did to the banjo's.
Image

Image

Author:  mslayton [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Mark - please excuse my ignorance as I continue to learn this stuff. Could you explain the location difference between the entrance to the angle channels and the actual angle channel. Based upon my other reading on here, I thought the angle channel was one passage from the main well to the booster pin. Is the other side of that passage accessible from the main well?

Also, interesting modification to the boosters. I wouldn't be able to make a mod like that so would I get a similar result by just opening up the 12 booster holes so that they equal the same cross sectional area?

Thanks,

Mark

Author:  Ken0069 [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

mslayton wrote:
would I get a similar result by just opening up the 12 booster holes so that they equal the same cross sectional area?

Thanks,

Mark


If you will remember, all these passages have gotten progressively LARGER as they've come up from the MJ. That being said, not sure that the "same as" cross sectional area is what's desired. jMark and I have discussed this via PM and phone call before this section was created and I think we both have come to the conclusion that we may need MORE area in the booster holes than the booster pin and the banjo has just to maintain flow that is unrestricted.

I'm sure shrinker will have a "technical" reason why this is or is not the case. ;-)

Author:  mslayton [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Thanks Ken. So if I'm follow you - the total area in the boosters holes needs to be at least the .185 from the banjo passage and might even need to be larger. Wouldn't the max flow restriction be the .160 at the bottom of the main well?

Author:  jmarkaudio [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

The whole point of progressively larger is to stave off turbulence at the transitions. The entrance to the angle channel is indeed in the mainwell, I took a small round file to knock as much off the edge at the turn as possible, In reading the E85 850 thread and e-mails with Shrinker, I felt he was trying to lead the other guys to look closer at the booster. The reason is to make sure the main jet is the restrictive point all the way to the booster, again to minimize turbulence. Not sure what or if the other guys are doing anything other than re-size them, I thought about what I could do to increase the area without making huge holes and the slots are what I came up with. Under pressure the fuel spreads to a fan pattern, kind of like a garden sprayer, I'm hoping it will improve the sheering of the fuel over a big hole or series of big holes without being a restriction. Also it keeps the passage tucked up closer to the ledge of the booster step, maybe giving it a little stronger signal to pull fuel out. Once I see how the car runs, and how the plugs and AFR look I will see if it works. Whether it's better than the large holes??? As far as getting them done, I have the tooling set up on my mill, I'll have to go back and see what the cost of blanks are vs drilled inserts as I might be able to do it for the same or close to what they get for drilled inserts.

Author:  mslayton [ Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Thanks Mark, that makes sense. If the modified boosters end up doing what you intend and you're willing to do the mods, I'd be more than willing to cover all the costs of parts and labor to have some duplicates made.

Author:  tomscharger70 [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Im wondering the about the size of the main jets? Your carb must be running pig rich? I run alot smaller main jets MJ 95 and SJ 97.. and the A/F gauge shows it running rich.. I wouldnt even need the gauge, I can smell it...

Question 2: Is the metering block your using a 2 cirquite block?

Question 3: How does one change out the Idle feed restrictor??? and where is the IFR on my metering block, am I blind, I just cant see it??? http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/ ... 130242.jpg

Thanks \:D/

/Tom

Author:  mslayton [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Tom - Yes, mark's conversion is a 2 circuit. One your blocks I believe the idle feed restriction is near the top of the metering block just next too the angle channel. (the upside down J shaped passage)

Author:  tomscharger70 [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

mslayton wrote:
Tom - Yes, mark's conversion is a 2 circuit. One your blocks I believe the idle feed restriction is near the top of the metering block just next too the angle channel. (the upside down J shaped passage)


Ok, a 2 circuite, would that explane the so much larger main jet sizes? That carb is also a 1250cmf size right?

About the IFR, I was not shore, because I was trying to figure out the holes by looking in my Holley Carburetor book, and the Holley metering and the QuickFuel block, the one I have, look a so different..

Thanks

/Tom

Author:  jmarkaudio [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Yes, mine are 2 circuit blocks, and will need a little more jet than a 3 circuit. Mine are also BLP jets, not Holley. a 100 Holley jet is around a .127 BLP, so it's not too far off. I would rather be rich to start and go back. I hooked up my FAST O2 today with the updated software and RPM module, RPM isn't working. So I have that to contend with. Loading it to the converter in the trailer is SHOWING around 8.9-9.1, which IF it's correct it will be lean. I need to put fresh plugs in it and make a pass to read them, work and weather are not cooperating at the moment. I REALLY wish I had bought the LM-1... ](*,)

Your IFR's are at the top, mine are at the bottom. Yours look to be threaded in at the top of the hook, you can make your own with brass set screws.

Author:  tomscharger70 [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Mark*

Those A/F numbers are on the lean side if your way up in the RPM range. At idle those numbers would be ok. My carb at idle is about 9.4 A/F (E85 numbers) at cruise (3200rpm = 60mph) about 8.5 and at WOT (shift at 7200 rpm) it runs pig rich at 6.9

Here is a Lambda chart. You dont have to change the numbers the gauge shows, Lambda will always be the same no matter the A/F shows, trying to remeber the different A/F charts just makes it complicated.

Lambda E85 A/F Fuel A/F

0.700 6.832 10.290
0.710 6.930 10.437
0.720 7.027 10.584
0.730 7.125 10.731
0.740 7.222 10.878
0.750 7.320 11.025
0.760 7.418 11.172
0.770 7.515 11.319
0.780 7.613 11.466
0.790 7.710 11.613
0.800 7.808 11.760
0.810 7.906 11.907
0.820 8.003 12.054
0.830 8.101 12.201
0.840 8.198 12.348
0.850 8.296 12.495
0.860 8.394 12.642
0.870 8.491 12.789
0.880 8.589 12.936
0.890 8.686 13.083
0.900 8.784 13.230
0.910 8.882 13.377
0.920 8.979 13.524
0.930 9.077 13.671
0.940 9.174 13.818
0.950 9.272 13.965
0.960 9.370 14.112
0.970 9.467 14.259
0.980 9.565 14.406
0.990 9.662 14.553
1.000 9.760 14.700
1.010 9.858 14.847
1.020 9.955 14.994

The LM-1 gauge is basically the same as this one http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2995/ I bought this gauge, works just as good as the more expencive Innovative LM-1 gauge. The thing to remeber is that the gauge needs to have a good ground, preferably to the engine block. Poor ground connection really screws up the gauge!

Have you been abe to try it out more, why Im asking is, if you expirienced the same "stumble" that my engine has, when going from idle to WOT, I have not been able to figure out how to get rid of it ](*,)

/Tom

Author:  jmarkaudio [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Tom, I'm not sure the AFR readings are correct. I also posted an AFR chart on the welcome page, As far as how it runs, it runs great in the trailer. I can hit the throttle with the transbrake set and it comes up clean up to 5100 where it hits the chip. I can let off and hit it again, no hint of stumble. The FAST O2 was used on my other engines some with leaded fuel, so I'm not sure of the sensors condition either. It was flashed with new firmware for E85, does not have a Lamda output capability. I think it's rich enough to run, just looks like I may be ordering a single channel LM1 to confirm or discount my current readings. I will not be able to try it until possibly next Thursday, it rained today so that was out.

Author:  tomscharger70 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Cheers Mark

Couldnt you just buy a new sensor for the FAST system? Then again sometimes just buying a new sensor cost more than a compleat set.

The position of the sensor, like where you place it on the collector, will be a major factor, to what kinda numbers youll see on the gauge... Just moving the sensor 1 inch in either direction will change the numbers.

/Tom

Author:  jmarkaudio [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

I am aware of sensor placement, I put them as far in the collector as possible. I would have like to have them in the primary tubes, but felt I should be able to get what I wanted primarily WOT to do the job, and popping the collectors off to weld in bungs was much easier than pulling the headers. I am not concerned as much about the #'s as I am making sure it is rich enough initially. I'll tune more with plugs and jetting for MPH. I work today, I'll play with it a little more tomorrow.

Author:  jmarkaudio [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: My E85 1150

Just had an idea on extending the exhaust to get a better reading with the O2's, I'll get some of the flexible metal clothes dryer ducting to clamp on the end of the collectors, keep from getting as much air dilution at least when stationary. Might stabilize the readings a bit.

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