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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:57 pm 
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just got another companies E85 carb in to recalibrate and convert to my specifications after the customer was not happy with product or the service he recieved from the tech.
He contacted the tech Dept several times and they could not tell him how to fix the carb to work on his engine.

im not trying to bash anyones stuff here, just thought I would post up my findings so that we can have a friendly discussion about it and maybe learn something in the process.

I am a small time carb builder who builds E85 ONLY, I did manage to turn around 137 carbs last year working from my home shop, and in the process I have learned alot about E85 and the do's and dont's.
I have put alot of time and effort into learning this fuel and how it works.
and in the process think i have become pretty darn good at these carbs.
track testing, O2 testing, dyno work, and flow bench has either been done by myself or my friend Eric in the quest for finding the correct E85 tune up.

We have found that E85 is not like gasoline or methanol and CANNOT be tuned or calibrated as such, you would think a major carb company would catch on that E85 has en extreemly thick viscosity and must be tuned accordingly.
as you read this understand that E85 DOES NOT like emulsification due to the viscosity of the fuel, and it needs a stronger pull to get the fuel moving and not to have the fuel thinned out to make it happen.
E85 does not flow like gasoline and the fuel does not vaporize until it hits 170* unlike the high end vapors of gasoline or the 130* for methanol.

Here are the specs I pulled from this 850 cfm carb:

PMJ - 95 (.116)
SMJ - 102 (126)(no jet extensions)
floats - standard nytrophyl
Power valve - 6.5 (standard flow)
PVCR - .116 (not understanding this with the above PV)
IFR - .042 (pretty normal for Street E85 carb)
IAB - .070
HSAB - .033
TSR - .120
Booster - .180-.182 internal .435 hole
cross or exit channel - .182 ( i normally like to keep these .008-.012 smaller than the booster)
Mainwell - Tapered with .208 at bottom to .230 at cross channel
anti-siphon - .026
Emulsions - .041, blank, .039, blank, .037
needle and seat - .130 viton tip
accelerator pump - 30cc/30cc
pump cams - pink/ pink
squirt nozzle - .035-.035

what I am seing here is that they are trying to compensate for large mainwells by over jetting, then trying to calm the top side down by over emulsification.....???

both of which, are a no-no when it comes to E85.

this jetting is larger than I use in my 1050 Dominator tune, and E85 typically only requires you move up 8-10 sizes on jets over gasoline.

the mainwells that I put in my carbs are made from a special $130.00 drill bit that are larger than a gasoling mainwell, but smaller than a methanol.

If you look at the PVCR and the PMJ sizes, you will see that the PVCR and the jets flow the exact same in theory....and while this may be ok in a transbrake only car, for street it does not respond well and will often have a ratty cruise and off idle issues.
E85 DOES like to have a PV .....and removing the PV , jetting one square, can cause you to have part throttle cruise issues as well as launch issues when launching off a transbrake.
the secondary flow are only about 75% of the primary side...unbalanced front to rear....this cannot be good for your engine as the front cylinders will be rich while the secondary side will be ....well rich too because of the HUGE JETS.

anyway, here it is for you guys to look over and discuss it....and maybe we can all learn from this.

what do you see in this tune?....
what dont you see?......

lol....and to think this guy told me that MY calibration was too rich and that I didnt know what I was doing.



P.S> this is also posted over at speed talk.


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:01 pm 
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Drag Chevette wrote:
P.S> this is also posted over at speed talk.


Got ugly real quick too, what's up with that?


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:28 pm 
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You and Eric are the only ones on here that do anything with E85 that I know of? I can write everything I know about E85 in one sentence.

"I don't know jack about E85 other than it's NOT available in my area!" ;-)

Logic does suggest that a couple of things don't seem right.

NO JET EXTENSIONS? This one is a no-brainer!

WRONG FLOAT MATERIAL? Not sure the nitrophyl will hold up under ethanol. I know that material doesn't work well with methanol over time.

WRONG NEEDLE SEAT MATERIAL? Thinking these need to be SS not viton.

PVCR & PMJ .116?? And this one?? WTF???

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:41 pm 
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jmarkaudio wrote:
Drag Chevette wrote:
P.S> this is also posted over at speed talk.


Got ugly real quick too, what's up with that?


Yeah well. That's OK too as long as it stays over there! ;-) Odd though. ST isn't known for that, or at least not that I remember. I haven't posted there in close to a year so I guess a lot could happen that I don't know about. I thought that YB and DRR were the main flame sites?

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Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:41 pm 
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Quote:
P.S> this is also posted over at speed talk.



Couldn't find it.


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:19 pm 
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Scott Smith wrote:
Quote:
P.S> this is also posted over at speed talk.



Couldn't find it.


Well, maybe someone deleted it since it seems to have started a flame war? Dunno Bubba! :-k

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Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:36 am 
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http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20758 Still there....


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:23 am 
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Ken0069 wrote:

Logic does suggest that a couple of things don't seem right.

I see several things...but you really have to know how E85 works and flows to understand them.
maybe when this post is done you will see it more clear.

Quote:
NO JET EXTENSIONS? This one is a no-brainer!

yeah, someone had a DUH moment ...lol

Quote:
WRONG FLOAT MATERIAL? Not sure the nitrophyl will hold up under ethanol. I know that material doesn't work well with methanol over time.

Actually it does hold up to E85 rather well, the floats shape has more to do with it than anything.
E85 is a very thick fuel and has a natural boyancy to certain floats, meaning certan shaped floats will float higher in the fuel than other floats and higher floating floats will cut the inlet supply off quicker.
kind of like your pontoon boat will float higher in salt water than it will in fresh water because of the thickness/viscosity supporting the pontoons.

Quote:
WRONG NEEDLE SEAT MATERIAL? Thinking these need to be SS not viton.

SS is correct, im thankful they didnt put the .150 methanol N&S in it.

Quote:
PVCR & PMJ .116?? And this one?? WTF???

I will on occasion run my PVCR as high as .093 but the jetting is relatively smaller depending on the cars usage.

my main deal was the 5/16 jetting on the methanol metering blocks.
both of these are WRONG for E85....they do work, but it can work better.

E85 is thicker and heavier than other fuels, and the larger mainwells tend to reduce the ability to lift the fuel within the mainwell causing a lean condition in the middle, gasoline mainwell size will give you the velocity you need but cannot support the volume required. E85 carbs need an E85 specific mainwell.

this large mainewell could be why the jetting is .116 / .126 ....it was an attempt to cure this mid range lean.
but in the process it caused an overly fat condition on the big end, so they had to emulsify the crap out of it to calm it down.

E85 does not like Emulsion air.....your not dealing with a liquid and gas (gas and air), your dealing with liquid, liquid and gas. (gas, ethanol, and air)

start slamming emulsion air into the mix and your thick bonded blended fuel is slam dancing all over the place.....talk about inconsistancies.

I have taken carb tunes close to this one and used unconventional thinking to retune them and they picked up .2-.4 in the quarter on a 9-10 second ride.

really sad part is that the mentality of these carb builders cant get past the gasoline/methanol way of thinking.

I owe Tuner alot, back when I was getting rolling in E85 we talked about alot of things as tuner often does...lol
tuner talked about holley truck metering blocks that didnt have emulsion holes and after we hung up, it hit me.
( which is not uncommon if you have ever had tuner overload, you catch up 3 hours after you hang up...lol)
instead of adding emulsion to get the fuel to move, take emulsion almost completely out and make it move in its natural thicker state.....it worked, and it liked it.

knowing everything I just told you, go look at the calibration again.....you will see more than just the obvious.


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:32 am 
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jmarkaudio wrote:
Got ugly real quick too, what's up with that?


that calibration may have hit closer to home than someone cares to admit....

if you stole and modified your calibration from company X , and then someone come on and shows/says that company X's calibration is crap, would it piss you off?

ever copy during a test only to find out that the person you copied off of got a "D" on the test?....safe bet you will get a "D" as well.

im not saying this is the case, but then numbers I have seen from certain companies E85 carburetors are somewhat similar.... =;

from talking to customers about these carbs, I do know that both companies use Methanol Jets (5/16 size)....I could only assume that the mainwells would be the same as well.....methanol sized.

whats that saying, the best ideas are stolen?....
some peoples idea of R&D is calling 1-800-345-4545 (jegs), its a whole lot cheaper than buying dyno time....lol


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:12 pm 
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What's up with Viton N&S and E85 Mark? Been using Viton tipped N&S with E85 for a few years now with no issues here . . . in fact I like it better than stainless. It seems to seal better for me. I guess it depends on what fuel pressure you use too.


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Eric68 wrote:
What's up with Viton N&S and E85 Mark? Been using Viton tipped N&S with E85 for a few years now with no issues here . . . in fact I like it better than stainless. It seems to seal better for me. I guess it depends on what fuel pressure you use too.


OH s**t, now dont you start too...lol

I guess the needle and seat is a matter of personal preference, but I always did like the stainless.

see healty debates are good.....lol


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:25 pm 
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What evidence do you have that E85 is higher viscosity than other common fuels?


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:35 pm 
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shrinker wrote:
What evidence do you have that E85 is higher viscosity than other common fuels?


http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010APS..MAR.C1298H


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:54 pm 
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shrinker wrote:
What evidence do you have that E85 is higher viscosity than other common fuels?


Gasoline = .46-.88 Centipoise, variable due to the different carbon chains in the gas. Commonly accepted as .6 @ 27*C
ethanol = 1.0 Centipoise @ 27* C
Methanol = .5 Centipoise @ 27*C

So based on the published numbers for viscosity ethanol is roughly 2x the viscosity of gasoline at 27* C (and methanol). Now the interesting part is that viscosity changes with temperature. By the time a fuel reaches 71*C (roughly 160*C or close to normal engine operating temp) viscosity changes as below

Gasoline = .3
ethanol = .5
methanol = .4

So you can see that gasoline and ethanol change proportionally with temperature where methanol does not change much at all. These facts are available to anyone that knows how to use Google -- the hard part is knowing / learning how these different properties affect the emulsification of a fuel in a carburetor and how it burns "best" in an engine.


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:09 am 
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what Eric Said....lol


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